whyther the chyrche can erre

Tyndale. THere is a nother question, whyther the chyrche maye erre. Whyche yf ye vnderstande of the pope and hys generacyon / is verely as harde a questyon as to aske whyther he that hath bothe hys eyes out be blynde or no, or whyther it be possible for hym that hath one legge shorter then a nother, to halte.

More. WHo wolde not nowe wene that thys man had a playne clere open cause and easy to defende / when that euyn in y• begynnyng in so few wordes, he concludeth all the mater at onys / and that wyth ensamples so playne and euydent, that euery man muste nedys agree them to be trew[…] But when ye shall agayne se, that hys ensamples are no more lyghtsome, then v[…]lyke the mater that he resembleth them vnto / and that he eyther of wylynesse wyll not, or for lacke of wytte can not perceyue and se the poynt that he shulde towche: then shall euery wyse man well perceyue and se, that hys solempne shewe of suche confydence in hys euyll cause, is nothynge but a playne proclamacyon made by hys owne mouth, of hys owne rebuke and shame.

For here wolde I wytte what thynge Tyndale meaneth, by the pope and popys generacyon. If he meane hys carnall kynredde, or the pope and his cardynallys eyther: he then wynketh of wylynesse, and wyll not se the marke. For he knoweth very well y• neyther of these is the thyng that we call the chyrche, when we speke of the catholyke chyrche of Cryste that can not erre.

If he meane by the pope and hys generacyon, all the crystens nacyons not beynge cut of nor caste out for theyr obstynate malyce, nor of wylfulnesse departyng out by sedycyouse scysmes: then seeth he y• marke at the leste wyse. But then whyle he sayth that all these nacyons maye and hath all thys.viii. hundred yere, so entyerly fallen in to heresyes and dampnable errours, that by all thys.viii. hundred yeres laste passed vnto Luthers dayes, nor yet vnto thys daye neyther, there hath ben no one knowen congregacyon any where, wherin y• professynge of the very ryght catholyke fayth of Cryst hath bene so surely kepte, that yt myghte there be surely lerned and knowen: then I saye Tyndale ys as blynde as he that lacketh bothe hys eyes / in that he seeth not that by thys waye he maketh our sauyoure Cryste that is very trewth to saye very false, where he sayth I am wyth you to the ende of the worlde / & wolde make hym farre ouerseen,¹ where he commaunded that who so wolde not here the chyrche,² shulde be reputed and taken as Paynyms and Publicans / and in many a playn texte of scrypture mo, as I haue before shewed, as well in my dyaloge as myne other thre formar bokes of this present worke, and yet hereafter shall forther.

Moreouer, yf Tyndale saye that all thys knowen corps of crystendome, haue all these.viii. hundred yere ben in a wronge bylyefe / where hath ben all thys whyle the ryght congregacyon of Tyndals chyrche, that hath h[…] the trewe bylyefe? And lette hym tell vs then, whyche congregacyon it was, or where any suche is yet, of whom we maye surely lerne the trewe fayth and trewe vertues.

If he saye that it hath ben amonge these, and was in thys chyrche but not of thys chyrch / but they haue lurked there a few faythfull folke, amonge the greate many multytude of the faythlesse, and haue euer bene to the worlde and outwarde syghte of man vnknowen / not so mych knowen as one of them to another, but yet very well knowen to god: to thys, besydes that yf they haue lyen all thys whyle lurkynge therin, they haue be then idolatres by theyr owne iudgemente, in image seruyce and prayeng to sayntes (yf Tyndals doctryne be the trewe faythe) and starke ypocrytes in beynge of one bylyefe in theyr hartes, and pretendyng another, both in theyr wordes and dedes / and besyde dyuerse other inuyncyble reasons, wyth which I haue all redy reproued that fonde opynyō in the seconde boke of my dyaloge, where vnto Tyndale hath made so bare answere that it hadde ben more wysedome for hym to haue lette it all alone and medle nothynge therwyth, as euery chylde almoste maye well perceyue that lyste to loke on them bothe, and aduysedly compare them togyder, as I shall my selfe set it forth vnto them when god shall after other thynges done gyue me tyme to come therto / and besyde dyuers other argumentes euydent and playne, whyche I partely haue, partely shall alledge and brynge forth in thys present work: this one can he neuer auoyde whyle he lyueth, that god had then lefte euery man perplexed in dowte and out of certaynte, what waye he myghte surely take and cleue vnto, eyther in the doctryne of fayth or knowlege of vertuose lyuynge.

For yf he saye that we nede no knowen company, but euery man maye rede the scrypture hym selfe: euery man he woteth well can not rede, nor euery man vnderstand it though he haue it in hys owne tonge / but by the redynge wythout a reder, maye soone fall into the dampnable errour of Arrius, Heluidius, and many a nother heretyke mo / whyche of the scrypture thorow theyr owne pryde toke occasyon of theyr heresyes.

If he then saye that of that vnknowen congregacyon, we maye haue a trew reder: where shall I seke hym, and wherby shall I knowe hym / yf I happen on hym, howe shall I be sure? For in thys great knowen congregacyon, we be saufe agaynste all suche parell. For we be all agreed vppon the necessarye artycles of the fayth. And yf any wolde preche and teche the contrary / as he that wold percase teche that confessyon is not necessarye, and that penaunce nedeth not, and that of the.vii. sacramentes.v. serue of nought, and the syxte of almost as lytell / and that of the seuenth all crysten nacyons be, and all thys.xv. hundred yere haue ben in a very damnable erroure: he that thus wolde preache and teche suche habomynable heresyes as nowe Tyndale doth, he maye be soone controlled, accused and corrected / excepte he ronne awaye as Tyndale doeth.

And wherby can we be sure that hys techynge whyche ys accusyd, ys false and theyrs trewe that correcte hym / but by that we be sure that the comen fayth of the catholyke chyrch is trewe / and that the catholyke knowen chyrche can not erre in that fayth, whych from hande to hande hath ben taken & kepte from Crystes dayes and hys apostles hytherto. whyche fayth muste nedes be trewe by Crystes promyse made vnto hys apostles, as teachers of hys chyrche, and not for them selfe but for hys chyrche / that is to wytte,³ the fayth that saynte Peter professed shulde not fayle, and that god wolde be wyth them all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde.⁴ And that the fayth of the knowen catholyke chyrche, that corre[…]teth the false fayth of the false precheours and heretykes, is the same fayth whyche the holy doctours of Crystes chyrche in euery age haue beleued and taught: saynte Ierome, saynte Austeyne, saynt Ambrose, saynte Chrysosteme, […]aynte Gregory, and saynte Cypryane do well and clerely testyfye by theyr bokes. For whyche holy doctours our lorde hath shewyd many a wonderfull myracle.

These thynges and many other maketh vs sure, that the prechour whyche prechyth agaynste the fayth of thys congregacyon is a false prechour, and a false wryther and wrester of holy scrypture / howe solempnely so euer he paynte yt.

And yf we were not sure by these meanes, that the fayth of thys knowen catholyke congregacyon is trewe / how shulde I be sure of the prechour of that vnknowen congregacyon, whyche Tyndale calleth the chyrche. How shuld I know I saye whyther ye prechour say trew or not. For he hath no knowen congregacyon to reproue hym or allow hym the suerty wherof myght make me sure that he sayth trewe or false.

But then muste I sayth Tyndale, trye hym by ye trewth of scrypture. what yf I be vnlerned? what yf I can rede & haue it in my langage, and yet vnderstand it but slēderly? what yf I be well lerned, and the false prechour as well lerned as I though he were no better: yet he shall haue texte agaynste texte, and glose agaynste glose / and when shall we then agree? Or yf I gyue place to hym or he to me / how shall yet the nomber of vnlerned herers be satysfyed wyth our dowtefull dysputacyons, yf they were not sure by the comon fayth of the knowen catholyke chyrch, whyche of vs lyed ere euer we came to gyther. By whyche they that neuer redde any scrypture / be now by the holy goost that hath planted the trewe fayth in his catholyke chyrche (y• holy doctours wherof haue in euery age ben approued by myracles) so inwardly sure of the trewth, that a poore symple woman yf Tyndale and I broughte the trouth in debate and questyon, and that I were waxen so madde to graunte hym that hys false heresyes were trewe / she wold not lette to byleue and saye so to, that we were two madde folys and false heretykes bothe.

And that thys is trewe shall mych the better apere whē we well examyne and consyder what congregacyon Tyndale calleth the catholyke chyrch[…].

Tyndale. I saye that Crystes electe chyrch is the hole multytude of all repentyng synners that byleue in Cryste, and put all theyr truste and confidence in the mercy of god / felynge in theyr hartes that god for Crystes sake loueth them and wyll be or rather is mercyfull vnto them, and forgyueth them theyr synnes of whyche they repente / and that he forgyueth them also all the mocyons vnto synne, of the whyche they fe[…]e leste they shulde therby be drawne into synne agayne. And thys fayth they haue wythout all respecte of theyr […] deseruynges / ye and for none other cause then that the me[…]yfull truth of god the father whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and so sworne.

More. Nowe hath Tyndale here defyned and descrybed vs what he called the chyrche. And for as myche as hys tytell is of hys chapyter, the questyon whyther the chyrche can […]rre / and that he now for the clerynge of the questyon, declareth that there be two chyrches, the tone whyche he sayth that we take for the ch[…]he whyche he calleth the pope and hys genera[…]yō, and say[…] that there is no dowte but that chyrche bo[…]e maye […]rre and in dede so dothe / and th[…] tother chyrche […]hy[…]he hy[…]sel[…]e calleth the very chyrche; ys thys y• he now defyn[…]th: it wold s[…]me that he wold afferme that thys chyrche whyche hym selfe descrybeth, were the chyrche that can not erre. wherin what his fynall and resolute sentence is, ye shall in hys other chapyters hereafter folowyng, at a longe length very scantly perceyue / excepte hys wordes be somwhat opened and a lytell more clerely declared, then as it appereth by his wrytyng, hym selfe wolde they sholde be / and nathelesse I truste they shall be.

wherfore to thende ye may the better vnderstāde where about he goeth / & that he longeth to le[…]e vs in derkenesse, and fede vs forth wyth hys hygh solempne folyes that he wolde were not vnderstanden: let vs a lytell examyne the partys of hys dyffynycyon and descrypcyon of the chyrch.

where he sayth that Crystes electe chyrche, ys the hole multytude of all repentaunt synners, that haue the condycyons forther expressed in hys descrypcyon: we must fyrst aske hym how taketh he there thys worde electe[…] It had ben good reason that he sholde haue declared, whyther he meane electe and chosen as our sauyour. Cryste dyd electe and chose hys chyrche and congregacyō out of the Iewis and the Gentyles, to be dedycate vnto hys seruyce / after whyche maner he fyrste elected and chose hys twelue apostles though they were not all fynally good, of whose eleccyon he sayd, ye haue not elected me but I haue elected you / and also sayd vnto them,⁵ Haue I not elected and chosen you twelue, and one of you is a deuyll: or ellys that he meane by the electe chyrche the chyrche of the fynall electes and predestynates to glory, beynge there vnto predestynate in the prescience and purpose of god before the creacyon of the worlde.

Thys poynte whyther he meane that hys hole multytude of repentynge synners[…] […]e the tone electe chyrche or y• tother, hath he not exp[…]e[…]ed / but h[…]th lefte vs at large to gesse and arede vppon […] derke rydles after folowynge, whyche of these two […] m[…]ane[…]h. How be it for awght that I can se hys descrypcyō […]greeth wyth neyther of theym bothe[…]

For as for y• fyrst […]y[…]de of elec[…]yon, a[…]ter whych Cryste hath chosen hys cat[…]o[…]ke chy[…]che out o[…] the Iewys […]nd Gentyls to be hys c[…]che herein […] thys kynde […] there penyt[…]ntes […]nd i[…]pe[…]ytentes […]the. For penite[…]es are accompted amonge […]he good / and in […]hys […]y[…]che […]e there bothe good and badde, as our sauyour sheweth hym selfe in the parables bothe of the felde wyth good corne & cocle,⁶ and also the nette wyth fysshes good and badde / and the scrypture sheweth by the arch of Noe with bestes clene and vnclene / and Cryste wyth hys aforesayde wordes to his apostles:⁷ Haue I not chosen you twelue and one of you ys a deuyll.

Now as for y• electe chyrch of predestynates yf he speke therof, as it may be verifyed in euery tyme syth it begā as he must yf he speke to the purpose / then are there therin accoūted not onely repētyng synners, but synners also, some yt yet repente them not, & some also yt neuer dyd the thyng wherof they shuld repente / as was our blessed lady whyle she lyued here, and our sauyour hym selfe also for any syn of hym self. For he was neuer penytent synner / but beyng synlesse hym selfe, paynfully payed for ours. So is not y• electe chyrch all repentyng synners onely, except y• eyther Cryste were no man or wer[…] also a synner, or els his manhed not parte of thys chyrche, but the chyrche of predestynates hedlesse. And in this I speke of that electe chyrch of predestynates, concernyng onely the cōgregacyon of such as shalbe saued in the kynde of man. For as for to cōsyder angels therin, is very farre fro thys mater.

yet are there also in thys chyrche of electes many that neuer came to the fayth, but are yet enmyes there vnto / as Iewes, Saracenes, or Turkes, not yet conuerted vnto y• fayth. And therfore thys electe chyrche wyll in no wyse agre wyth the dyffynycyon or descrypcyon of Tyndale. I wolde that he therfore to gyue his mater more lyght, had shewed vs as I say, which kynde of eleccyon he meaneth.

How be yt we shall gesse at hys mynde as nere as we can and make the best of hys mater / and then se whyther the beste be able to stande[…] He maye seme to meane by Crystes electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon[…] a parte of the electe chyrche of the seconde maner / that is to wyt as many therof as be repentaunt synners wyth those other condicyons that are expressed in hys des[…]rypcyon. For other then thys I can not deuyne what he shold meane. But then as those repentaunt synners be a parte of the chyrche predestynate / so be they a parte of thys catholyke chyrche here mylytaūt after the fy[…]st kynde of eleccyon, in whych are bothe good and bad / of whych hole nomber the good are y• tone parte.

yet leueth he vs after thys waye in a nother dowt / whyther the repentynge synners may afterwarde fall to synne agayne, and from repentaunce and so to repentaunce agayne, and yet agayne therfro. He leueth vs also in dowt whyther thys electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon maye be deceyued & erre or not. For in these two poyntes he wrappeth vs vp wyth rydles, that he gyueth vs to rede in other chapyters how they may synne and yet synne not, erre and yet erre not / and redeth hys rydles hym self also so fondly, that an olde wyfe wolde be ashamed to rede suche redles so folysshely by the fyre syde amonge yonge chyldren. And yet in this one poynt whyther the chyrch maye erre or not, is in effecte all the hole mater and purpose of hys boke.

And fynally for all that euer he sayth / he leueth it in dowte whyther his repentaunt synners, syth he graunteth that though they maye not synne yet they maye synne, and y• in lykewyse though they can not erre yet they can erre, be of thys electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon in these tymes onely in whyche they synne not nor erre not / or ellys in all those tymes to, in whyche they bothe synne and erre. And here speke I of suche synne as is of hys nature dedely, though the soule dye not by eternall dampnacyon therfore / bycause he repenteth that synne agayne ere he dye. And I speke of that errour also, whyche is of hys nature fynfull and damnable though the soule suffer not eternall dampnacyon therfore / bycause he repenteth that erroure afterwarde, and retourneth agayne to the trewth ere euer hys body dye.

Of all these dowtes the more parte he neuer moueth / and suche as he moueth in other chapyters after, he so fondely soyleth, that all the worlde maye se that he nothynge seketh but corners to trepe in, where he maye luske and lurke in the derke / out of whych we shall I truste so bryng hym in to the lyght, that hys eyen shall dase to loke theron

But in the meane whyle thys ye se, that how so euer he mene by the electe chyrche of hys repentaūte synners, with all the felyng fayth that he can frame therto: yet syth men can neuer knowe whyche be they, there can no man haue any suretye by that chyrch of the trewe doctryne of god / no more then a man coulde by that vnknowen chyrche know whyche is the trewe scrypture of god. And therfore is this electe chyrche of Tyndals descrypcyon deuysed onely to […]ugle wythall, and to deceyue our syght, and not to serue in thys mater to any substancyall purpose.

But yet that it can not onely do no good, but is also dremed out by hym to do myche harme: ye shall playnely perceyue, yf ye consyder what repentaūce and what fayth he meaneth. For these wordes wyll sowne very well in the erys of such symple soules, as do not whyle they rede them cōsyder what maner thynges Tyndale meaneth by them, and what thynge he calleth repentaunce and byleuyng in Cryste wyth a felyng fayth. But on the tother syde / he that consydereth that Tyndale wolde haue vs so to byleue in Cryste, that we shold set hys holy sacramentes at nought, and that we sholde byleue that all crysten people haue hytherto byleued wronge, that haue byleued that men ought to be shreuen, or rec[…]yue any penaunce at the prestes hand, or that haue byleued y• there ys any purgatory after thys present lyfe, or that put any fayth in the sacrament of the aultare, or any other thynge byleue therof then that it ys onely a sygne memoryall and token of Crystes deth and passyon, and that euery man is in a false bylyefe that wyll any other honour do therto then onely thys bare bylyefe / wherof playnly foloweth that onys to knele or praye therto were open and playne idolatrye / and that he wold haue vs also byleue that to saye the masse wyth the holy canon therin, as all crysten realmes do, and so many hundred yeres haue done were heyghnouse dedely synne / and that it were synne also to byleue y• man by good workes wrought in fayth, any rewarde meryteth towarde god / or fynally y• any of the olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche, synnys Crystes dayes and hys apostles hytherto, were in ye ryght bylyefe before holy Luthers dayes and hys owne / for sure am I that there was neuer none of all them that in bylyef dyd agre wyth these twayne, nor these twayne bytwene thē selfe: he that thys felynge fayth consydereth in Tyndals techynge, shall soone fele that all hys holy solempne tale of all hys felynge fayth ys not worth a fly, but very fay[…]hlesse heresye.

And also when he hereth hym so sayntly speke of repentynge / and then consydereth that he wolde haue vs rep[…]nt that euer we were shryuen (for shryfte he calleth the false inuencyon of Sathan) and wolde haue vs also to be such as repent that euer they were of the ryght bylefe, and such as wolde haue freres and nonnes repente theyr relygyon and runne out and wedde togyther: he that consydereth thys, shall I saye se that Tyndals electe and chosen chyrche, is a chyrche of chosen heretykes, of contrary bylyefe to the chyrche of whyche saynte Hierom was a doctour, and saynt Austayne, and saynt Gregory, and saynte Ambrose, and all the other old holy fathers from the apostles dayes hytherto / or els muste Tyndale tell vs ones agayne, some one of all theym that byleued it lawfull, for a monke or a frere professed vnto perpetuall chastyte, to runne out of relygyon and go wedde a nonne.

Now am I glad yet that he cometh forth wyth repentaunce, at the leste wyse one way or other. For fayth alone was wont to do all thorow all a mannys lyfe. And when it was proued them by playne and euydent scrypture, that fayth coulde not auayle wythout cheryte / then fell they to glose it and say, that fayth could neuer be wythout it. And then beynge therin repreued playnely by saynt Poule and saynt Iamys both / yet stande they styll by theyr worde,⁸ ⁹ & defende theyr wordes onely by wordes agaynst all reason, & agaynst the playne wordes of god not vnwryten whych they set not by, but the very wryten wordes in playne and euydent scryptures, for all that they saye they byleue no thynge ellys. And in that poynt I byleue them well and in more to. For where they say that they byleue nothyng but scrypture, I thynke they saye trewe / for they byleue no thynge besyde the scrypture, nor yet the scrypture neyther, as theyr owne wrytynges do full clerely declare.

But now syth they say styll that fayth alone suffyseth, and yet saye that there muste be cheryte to / and now saye there must be repentaunce to: they saye none other thynge in effecte, but y• it is mough to haue fayth alone yf a man haue other vertues to / and that it suffyseth to haue fayth alone, so that fayth be not alone: for and it be alone then is it no fayth at all. Is not thys a nother goodly rydle, wherby Tyndale techeth all thynge playnely?

Nor thys poynt wyll neuer be well patched wyth hys felynge fayth and hystorycall, as ye shall hereafter here when we come to the chapyter.

But yet agayn in the meane whyle, bycause he speketh of repentaunt synners, that they make the electe chyrche of Cryste: I wolde wytte of hym whyther one parte of repentynge muste not be to repente heresyes. If not / then Crystes electe chyrche maye kepe them styll, and be a chyrche of heretykes. And on the tother syde, yf a man muste repente hys heresyes: then aske I Tyndale agayne, how shall an vnlerned man knowe whyche they be. The preacher shall tell theym sayth Tyndale. So saye we to. But what yf y• preachers do not agre therin / how shall he know the trewe preachers fro the false? Lette hym loke on the scrypture sayth Tyndale, and therby shall he iudge them by the ryght rule of the worde of god. But therto I saye, that, all thynge that we be bounden to byleue and obserue is not wryten in scrypture, as I haue in the thyrde boke more then playnely by the playne scrypture proued. And besydes that, vnlerned men are not able, nor euery lerned man neyther, surely to dyscerne and iudge the trewe sence of the scrypture, in a greate thynge growen in debate and controuersye, where playne textes of scrypture seme to speke for bothe the sydes. And therfore it muste nedes be, that there is by god prouyded and lefte some such suretye, as maye brynge vs out of all suche perplexyte. And that is as I haue sayde, hys holy spyryte sent and lefte perpetually wyth hys chyrche, to lede it so by hys owne promyse euer into all necessary trouth,¹⁰ that who so here and byleue hys chyrche, maye be sure that he can not be deceyued / but that yf a false techer wold lede men out of the ryght fayth, the chyrche of Cryste shall reproue hym and condempne hym, and put the people in certentye.¹¹ For whyche cause saynt Poule sayth that the chyrche is the fyrme […]tablyssh[…] mente and the pyller of trouth for the inuyolable suerty of doctryne. And therfore that can neuer be no chyrche but a knowen chyrche.

But then sayth Tyndale, that it is trewe that there is all suretye in the chyrche of Cryste. But he sayth that the chyrch[…] of Cryste is onely the nomber of repentynge synners, that haue the felynge fayth whyche hym selfe descrybeth. Then we aske hym wherby shall a man knowe them, and be sure of them / so that he maye vse them for hys sure and vndoutable iudges bytwene the two contrary preachers, of whyche the tone is trewe the tother false.

It maketh no mater sayth he, though ye knowe them not. How shall I then be putte in surety by them, but yf I knowe that they be the chyrche wyth whom god promysed to leue hys holy spyryte / and whom he wylled euery man to here and to obay. ye shall perceyue it sayth he, by that ye se they be good men, and shewe the frewtes of fayth in theyr lyuynge. I can not be therby sure / syth an ypocryte maye fayne them. And also hym selfe graunteth after in hys chapyter, that they synne and yet synne not / so that though they synne not bycause of theyr felynge fayth, and theyr repentaunce folowynge: yet they maye ryght often do synne, in suche wyse that they maye do and in dede do many suche abomynable dedes, as men be hanged for and worthy for myche lesse / and suche that them selfe shulde for the same, sauynge for theyr felynge fayth be dampned in hell perpetually / from which none hystorycall fayth could kepe them, as Tyndale sayth.

Now then yf he saye trewe / it is impossyble for me to knowe the electe chyrche of felynge faythfull repentaunte synners, to take the sure iudgement by.

Then yf he walke as it were in a mase, and come to the fyrste poynte agayne, and say it forcheth not, for they shall be decerned by the scrypture it selfe: that gappe haue I so stopped all redy, that he shall stycke styll at a stake & reste hys bones in y• busshes ere euer he gete out there. wherfore whē he shall se hym self vnable to defend hys owne chosen vnknowen chyrche, in y• poynt in which it sholde specyally serue, that is for y• sure techyng of the trew fayth: he shall then fynde none other shyft, but to loke whyther he myght make the catholyke knowen chyrche to fall in the lyke defawte / and shall aske vs how we do knowe the trew chyrch of Cryste, by whose doctryne we maye be sure of the ryght bylyefe. where vnto we shall answere, that therin can no man be deceyued. For it is the comon knowen chyrche of all crysten people, not gone out nor caste oute. Thys hole body bothe of good and badde is the catholyke chyrche of Cryste, whyche is in thys worlde very sikely[…] & hath many sore mēbres / as hath somtyme the naturall body of a man, and some sore astonyed, and for a tyme colde and dede / whyche yet catcheth hete and lyfe agayne, yf it be not precyded and cut of from the body.

Thys catholyke knowen chyrch is that mystycall body be it neuer so syke, whereof the pryncypall hed is Cryste. Of whyche body whyther the successour of saynt Peter be his vycar generall and hed vnder hym, as all crysten nacyons haue now longe takē hym / is no parte of this questyō. For to this mater it is inough, y• thys body mystycall of Cryste this catholyk chirch, is y• body y• is animated, hath lyfe spyrytuall, & is enspyred with ye holy spyryt of god yt maketh thē of one fayth in the howse of god,¹² by ledyng thē in to the cōsent of euery necessary trouth of reueled fayth, be they in condycyōs & maners neuer so syke, as longe as they be cō formable & content in vnyte of fayth, to cleue vnto ye body.

Of this chyrch can we not be deceyued, nor of the ryght faith can we not be deceyued whyle we cleue to this chirch / syth this chyrch is it in to which god hath gyuē his spyryt of fayth, & in this chirch both good & bad ꝓfesse one fayth. For yf any professe the cōtrary fayth, be it any one man or any one coūtrey: they be controlled, noted, and rep[…]ou[…]d by the hole body & soone knowen from the body. Now yf it happen any pryuy heretykes to lurke in this body, yet all the whyle, they agre with y• body in open professiō of fayth, & teche no thyng cōtrary / they can not begyle vs, though they may by secrete heresyes of theyr hartes, synfully deceyue them selfe. And when they teche the cōtrary / then are they as I say reproued opēly by ye body / & eyther reformed & cured, or els cutte of fro the body and casten out therof. So yt this chyrch is knowen well inough / & therfore maye be well vsed as a sure iudge, for to decerne bytwene y• trew doctrine & the false, and the trew precher & false, cōcernyng the ryght fayth and the decernyng of the trew word of god wrytē of vnwryten, from ye coūterfete word of man / and in the decernyng of ye ryght vnderstādyng of the scrypture of god, as farforth as of necessyte perteyneth vnto saluacyō.

And this aduaūtage y• I speke of haue we, by y• that this chyrch is knowē / where as Tyndals chosen chyrch of repē tyng synners we can neuer know them, but yf we se them walke in our chyrch in processyon with a candell byfore y• crosse, or stand before the pulpet with a fagot in theyr nekkes. And yet can we not knw thē so neyther / for they may seme repentaūt openly, and yet thynke in theyr hartes full shrewdely, as they comēly do. Now wherby we shall be sure yt thys knowē catholyke chyrch, is y• very trew chyrch yt is to be byleued / & that no man may be surely byleued ye agreeth not with the fayth of this chyrche / all be it I haue both in my dyaloge & in sondry places of my.iii. formar bokes of this psent worke, well & playnly ꝓued you: yet shall I fynally before I fynysshe thys worke by such clere open markes & tokens shew you wyth euydent reason & playne scrypture furnysshed, that no chylde shall after nede any thynge to dowte therof.

But now consyder in the meane whyle, that Tyndals dyffynycyon or descrypcyon of the chyrch, by whych he calleth it the nomber of all repentynge synners wyth all hys other cōdycyons adioyned therunto / is fyrst full of darkenesse. And when it is opened […] it agreed neyther wyth one chyrch nor other. And yet is it by another poynt of his own false doctryne, vtterly destroyed. For he techeth playnly, that who so euer do after baptysme synne onys of purpose wyllyngly, & not onely of wekenes and infyrmyte, he shall neuer be saued / but all his repētaūce after, though he trust neuer so myche in god, & haue after neuer so sure fayth in hym, shall neuer serue hym to saluacyō but he shalbe fynally dampned as I shall shew you forther after. And then ye se playnly, that his dyffynycyon of hys electe chyrch, is by his owne doctryne destroyed. For the elect chyrch can not be the nōber of all repentyng synners y• truste to be saued in Crystes passyon, yf some suche repentyng synners shall neuer be saued by hys passyon as Tyndale playnly lyeth. And therfore syth he hath fayled of his dyffynycyon of the chyrche, and therby loste and spylled all hys purpose: lette vs now consyder whyther he handle any more wysely the remanaunt of hys goodly mater.

Tyndale. Thys fayth haue they wythout all respecte of theyr owne deseruynges / ye and for none other cause, then that the mercyfull trewth of god the father whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and so sworne.

More. I dowte not good reders but ye remember well, that all the doctryne of Crystes chyrche is full of warnynge, that no man sholde put a prowde truste and confydence in hys owne wurkes, nor onys thynke that he can of hym selfe alone without goddes gracious helpe, do any good wurke at all / and greate cause hath to fere and mystruste all hys owne workes, for vnperfyte cyrcumstaunces seldom perceyued by hym selfe. And also that in all that a man maye do he doth but hys onely dewtye / and that the beste worke were noughte worth to heuenwarde of the nature of the worke yt selfe, ne were it for the lyberall goodes of god, y• lysteth so hyghly to rewarde it / and yet wolde not rewarde it so, sauynge for the passyon of hys owne sonne. All these thynges and many suche other mo be so dayly taught and preched in the chyrche / that I truste in good fayth that almoste euery good olde wyfe can tell them.

And therfore it […]pereth well that Tyndale varyeth not wyth vs for so farre / but that he meaneth a farre forther thynge, where he sayth that the electe chyrche trusteth so vtterly to be forgeuyn all synne & mocyons vnto synne, wythout any respecte of theyr owne deseruyng / & playnely meaneth therin (as in other places also he playnely declareth hym selfe, whyche I haue in my formar bokes proued and reproued) not onely that men shold not nede, but also that it were synne to go about any good wurke wroughte wyth grace in fayth, to deserue any thyng toward the gettynge of full and perfayt forgeuenes.

To thys poynte cometh Tyndals holy felynge fayth, that feleth alwaye full forgyuenesse, wythout any regard or respecte of mannys owne endeuour[…] deserue it. Thys false felynge fayth hath Tyndale taken of Luther / when he and all the rable of theyr secte saye, that fayth of necessyte bryngeth forth good wurkes, as the frute of the tree of faith. And yet they say ye good wurkes be nought worth and therby make they y• tre of fayth lytell better. For what good tre can yt be, wherof ye good frute is noughte worth.

But Tyndale and Luther bothe lye lowde in bothe the poyntes. For bothe maye a man haue the ryght fayth idle and workelesse, and therfore dede and frutelesse. Dede I saye, not in the nature and substaunce of bylyefe a fayth / but dede as to the attaynyng of saluacyon. And also good wurkes wrought in fayth, hope, and cheryte, be very profytable towarde obtaynynge of forgyuenesse and getynge reward in heuyn / excepte ye scrypture of god be false,¹³ when it sayth that as the water quencheth fyre, so doth almoyse dede auoyde synne / and except our sauyour hym selfe saye false, where he sayth,¹⁴ Gyue your superfluouse substaunce in almoyse, and then lo are ye all clene. And in lyke wyse where he promyseth rewarde in heuen in sondry playne places of scrypture,¹⁵ for good wurkes done here in erth.¹⁶

Now yf Tyndale answere, that the good workes be nothynge worth of them selfe, nor wythout fayth, as he answereth me in his answere to ye thyrd boke of my dyaloge: then maye euery chylde se that he is dreuen to the harde wall, & fayne to seke a shamfull shyfte. For what thynge is awght worth of yt selfe to heuenward, without goddes grace and the greate goodnesse of god? No fyry cheryte, though men wolde burne for goddes sake, coude deserue heuen of yt selfe wythout the lyberall goodnesse of god. For as saynt Poule sayth,¹⁷ the passyons of thys worlde be not worthy to wynne the glory to come, that shalbe shewed vppon vs.

And yf he saye that good workes be nought worth, bycause they be nought worth without fayth / so myght he as well saye ye fayth were nought worth, bycause it is nought worth wythout cheryte. So that ye maye playnely se that he seketh nothynge but shyftes / whyche wyll yet serue of nought when he hath all together done.

For ye maye fynally perceyue, that though euery man maye well fere that the workes which hym selfe hath done semed they neuer so good, were yet for some lacke vppon hys parte in y• doynge, so vnperfyt in the depe secret syght of god, that they were vnworthy to serue hym or be any thynge rewarded / and also that were they neuer so pure & perfyt, they were not yet worthy […]uche rewarde but of goddes lyberall goodnesse: yet is it a very false fayth and a pestylent heresye, to byleue as Tyndale here techeth vs, y• god wyll saue suche as maye worke wythout any respecte or regarde vnto theyr deseruynge / as though he rought not whyther they dyd good or yll, but wyll saue all suche as hym lyste do they what they lyste, onely bycause hym lyste / and that hym selfe so lysteth for none other cause, but onely bycause he hath so promysed and sworen.

For surely, neyther is the promyse the cause as I haue in myne other boke shewed / but ye goodnesse of god whych caused hym so to promyse. Nor also he hath not so sworne nor so promysed neyther, that he wyll saue man wythout any regarde of good wurkes / but hath bothe promysed & sworne the clene contrary, that but yf we wurke well yf we maye,¹⁸ or repent that we dyd not and be in purpose to do / ellys shall our fayth stande vs in lytell stede,¹⁹ but greately aggreue and encrease the payne of our dampnacyon. And now that hys fayth is proued very playne false and faythlesse / it is a worlde to se how ryally he runneth forth in the prayse, as though it were proued trew.

Tyndale. And thys fayth and knowlege is euerlastynge lyfe / and by thys we be borne a newe, and made the sonnes of god, and obteyne forgyuenesse of synnes, and are translated from deth to lyfe, and from the wrath of god vnto hys loue and fauour. And thys fayth is the mother of all trouth, and bryngeth wy[…]h her the spyryte of all truth, whyche spyryte purgeth vs as from all sy[…]e, euyn so from all lyes and errour noysome and hurt[…]ull. An[…] thys f[…]yth is the fundacyon layde of the apostles and prophetes, whereon Paull sayth Ephe. 2. that we are bylte, and therby of the howseholde of god. And thys fayth is the rocke wheron Cryste bylte hys congregacyon.

More. Lo what a prayse he hath made you of thys fayth, that feleth that folke sholde nede to do no good workes. How he calleth it euerlastyng lyfe to come, to the bare knowlege of that fayth that shall take away from vs all respecte and regarde of deseruynge any rewarde or thanke, the rather for any good wurkes. For yf men myght haue any suche respecte / then were it greate parell leste men wolde fall the more to do them. For other greate parell I se none, consyderynge y• we be well taught to put no proude confydence in them, but referre all the thanke of them to god by whose helpe and grace we do them.

Now wote ye well that no good man can deny, but that for lacke of suche wurkes men shall be dampned, as Cryst sayth hym selfe in the gospell.²⁰ And harde it were that the good nature of god beynge more redy to rewarde then to punysshe / wolde punysshe vs for the lackynge and not rewarde vs for the hauynge / namely syth hym selfe sayth in the same gospell,²¹ that he shall gyue men heuen for theyr almoyse ded.

But Tyndale as he denyeth the tone, so denyeth he the tother to, and wyth some fonde glose wyll auoyde the gospell and all / and then goo boldely forth wyth hys fayth & boste it, and saye thys fayth and knowlege is euerlastynge lyfe. But all faythfull folke wyll saye agayne, thys fayth and knowlege ys euerlastynge deth. For thys fayth hath Luther and frere Huskyn bothe, and yet be farre from euerlastynge lyfe. For bysyde that abomynable heresye it selfe, agaynste all regarde of good wurkes / they be not agreed in bylyefe concernynge the sacrament of the awter / the tone byleuynge it to be very brede […] the tother no thyng loweth ellys but brede, and false bothe twayne. And Tyndale foloweth the falser of them bothe. And so thys fayth delyuereth them not fro lyes, besydes yt they bothe and Tyndale wyth them, do byleue yf they lye not, that it is lawfull for monkes & freres to breke theyr vowed chastyte and runne out and wedde nonnes. whyche poynt of false fayth, ys no parte of the fundacyon that the apostles byelded vppon / but saynt Poule preched the contrary, sayeng that vowed wydowes wyllynge to wedde shold haue dampnacyon / by cause they had frustrated and broken theyr forma[…] fayth,²² that is to wytte theyr fayth gyuen to god in theyr vowe of abstynence from all carnall knowlege of man / agaynste whyche fayth they wolde now wedde, and geue a seconde fayth vnto man in maryage. But now goth Tindale forth wyth hys tale, & wolde seme to proue it trew by scrypture.

Tyndale. Cryste asked hys apostles Matth. 17. whom they toke hym for. And Peter an[…]wered for them all sayenge, I say that thou arte Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god, that arte come in to thys worlde. That is, we byleue that thou arte he that was promysed vnto Abraham, shulde come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. How be it Peter yet wyste not by what meanes / but now it is opened thorow out all the world, that thorow the offeryng of his body and blo[…]e

More. Here is it necessary that euery wyse reder marke well & consyder, the cause and purpose of Tyndale, in bryngyng in thys confessyon of saynt Peters fayth / where he sayde thou arte Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god, that arte comen into thys worlde.

ye shall vnderstande that Tyndale and hys mayster Marten and hys felowys, for as myche as they be fallen from the ryght bylyef in many great artycles of our fayth / and consyderynge that wyth such slender prouys as Tyndale bryngeth for hys parte, and therto so playnely reproueth, euery good crysten man yt any care hath of hys owne soule wylbe sore afrayed to put it in iuperdye of dampnacyon by fallynge in any poynt from the fayth of Crystes hole catholyke chyrche, for the worde of a fonde wedded frere or any fonde felow of hys: he deuyseth here to take a waye that fere, and to make m[…]n byleue at the leste wyse, that so a man byleue the thynge that Peter then confessed / it suffyseth ynough for saluacyon, though he byleue no forther artycles besyde. And thus farre suffyseth for hym, to make folke the lesse aferde to draw towarde hym. But bryngynge vs onys so farre forward / then wyll he forther for his purpose say, that not onely no man is bounden vppon damnacyon to byleue any more, but that forther it is dampnable in some thynges to byleue more / and that in some thynges it neyther auayleth nor hurteth to byleue any more. And therfore it is wysdome to stay well our selfe in the begynnynge. For Tyndale sayth, as I haue in my fyrste boke shewed you, many thynges agaynst dyuerse of the sacramentes, whych he sayth is dedely synne to byleue. And here he putteth for fayth inough, the fayth that saynt Peter cōfessed. And in hys chapyter answered in my thy[…]d boke of thys worke, whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten that were necessary to saluacyon / there sayth he that to byleue or not byleue the assumpcyon of our lady or her perpetuall virginyte and many suche other mo, is but a bylyefe of an hystory and nothynge doth perteyne vnto saluacyon.

And hereafter in his other chapyter, how a crysten man can not erre and how he maye yet erre / in that chapyter he sayth that the very crysten men can not erre in any thynge that sholde be agaynst the promyses whyche are in Cryste / and in other thynges theyr errours be not vnto dampnacyon, though they be neuer so greate. wherof he by and by putteth ensample of the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady / in the not bylyefe wherof he sayth that a man beynge ledde of ignoraunce by the wordes of the gospell, to byleue that she were not a perpetuall vyrgyne, myght in case for lacke of the contrary techynge dye in that mysse bylyefe and yet take none harme therby, bycause it hurteth not the redemcyon that is in Crystes bloude. For though she had none but Cryste. I am (sayth Tyndale) therfore ne[…]er the more saued, n[…]yther yet the lesse though she had had / and in suche lyke an hundreth t[…]at p[…] keth not a mannes fayth from Cryste, they myghte erre and yet be neuer the lesse saued, though the contrary were wryten in the gospell.

Lo here haue I welbeloued readers, no thynge letted partely to repete agayne hys wordes wryten in hys other chapyter before, partely to anticypate hys wordes wryten in hys othe chapyter. After whyche wordes of hys I haue out of bothe places taken into thys / to the entent that all be it I partely haue and partely shall, touch them in theyr owne proper places: yet ye sholde se the hole somme and effecte of thys tale concernynge the fayth byfore your face layed to gether. whyche he draweth in peces and pulleth into sondry partes / bycause he wolde by hys wyll fayne stele awaye from vs in the darke and leue vs wythout any playne perceyuynge of hys vngracyous mynde.

But now that I haue layed in effecte all hys hole opynyon together as towchynge the fayth (sauyng hys onely dyfference and dyuysyon of hystorycall fayth and felynge fayth, which I shall reserue vnto hys proper place) I shall a lytell examyne thys fayth of his, that ye may loke theron in the lyght, and se whyther it be suffycyent for your saluacyon or not.

Fyrste in thys fayth that saynt Peter confessed is neuer a worde of purgatory.

Now dowte I not but that Tyndale when he redeth thys worde, wyll well and merely laugh therat, and saye no more there nedeth. For that fayth wyll he saye wyll put out and quenche the fyre of purgatory clene.

Then wyll we aske hym how wyll he laugh at the fyre of hell / for of that fyre is there no thynge spoken in that cō fessyon neyther, but that he myghte for all that confessyon wene well inough that there were none hell. If Tyndale wyll saye nay / for he muste nedes byleue that the thynge from whyche Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god was comen into the worlde to redeme mankynde, muste nedes be hell / and that therfore Peters confessyon includeth of necessyte y• bylyefe of hell: I answere Tyndale agayne that therin was no necessyte. For Peter myghte byleue at that tyme for any worde that was in hys confessyon, that Crystes comynge was onely to redeme vs not from hell but from the losse of heuyn / from whyche he myght thynke peraduenture that all mankynde were bannysshed vnto suche a place as was Limbus patrum though out of payne, yet suspyrynge and syghynge after the syghte of god and ioy of heuen / and into suche estate as chyldren lyue in that dye vnbaptysed. whyche though they entre not heuyn, bycause they dye the chyldren of wrath vnreconcyled: yet the mercyfull anger of god dreueth them not downe into sensyble payne and to the felynge of the infernall fyre.

Thys fayth myghte perad[…]enture s[…]ynte Peter haue, for any thynge spoken of in his confessed fayth / ye and myghte haue therwyth also a bylyefe, that for actuall synnes men were punysshed after thys lyfe some lesse whyle some lenger, and yet none euerlastyngly / but euery man at length brought vnto peace and reste though neuer no man to the blesse of heuen, but onely by crystes commyng. And thus myghte saynte Peter haue rather a bylyefe of purgatory then of hell, for any worde mencyoned in hys confessyon, wherin he confesseth not the bylyefe of eyther other. Saynte Peter also nothynge there confessed of Crystes passyon, descencyon into hell, resurreccyon, nor of hys ascensyon / whyche thynges be not onely pryncypall poyntes of our fayth, but also some such as goddes promyse specyally dependeth vppon.

Unto whyche promyses Tyndale restrayneth all our necessary fayth. How be it of trouth Tyndale restrayneth […]t therin to sore. For then we be not bounden to byleue that the holy goste were equale with ye father and the sonne, for yt was no promyse made vnto vs. And yet are we bounden to byleue that trewth, wherof is also nothynge spoken in Peters confessed fayth.

Therfore yt wyll be very harde (yf impossyble be hard) for Tyndale to sustayne that the fayth whyche saynte Peter confessed than, were suffycyent to serue euery cryst[…]n man now. And therfore lette no man take any boldenesse vppon Tyndales tale, to thynke as he wolde haue hym, that onely the thynge that Peter there confessed were inough now to byleue / and that in all other thynges that the chyrch byleueth, whyche Cryste and hys holy spyryte haue taught hys chyrch synnes, were but thynges indyfferent, & no thyng forced whyther they were byleued or not.

Tyndale shall be constrayned to come to thys euyn by hys owne wordes, all be it that he affermeth for faste and sure somewhat more then he maye make good[…] For he sayth that Peter ment by his wordes / we byleue that thou arte he that was promysed vnto Abraam, sholde come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. And yet he sayth, Peter wyste not by what meanes Cryste sholde delyuer vs. But nowe it is open he sayth thorow out all the worlde, that thorow the offerynge of hys body and bloude.

Now yf Peter at that tyme knewe not the thynge that muste now nedes be byleued, vppon payne of damnacion: ye maye therby se that the fayth whyche Peter confessed then, is not inough now for euery man to be saued by / but we be bounden to the bylyefe also of such thynges as god hath reueled and made open to be byleued vnto hys chyrche any tyme synnes. Or ellys muste Tyndale tell vs at what tyme god bade ho, and gaue vs leue to byleue hym no ferther, what so euer he wolde ferther saye to vs.

Consyder yet also that Tyndale agreeth, that the very trew crysten of hys electe vnknowen chyrche / do byleue the artycle of the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady as soon as they be taught it, and knowledge theyr formar errour / wherby he graunteth that he whyche doth not so is no[…]e of the electes. Then saye I that theruppon it foloweth by hys owne wordes, that the artycle of the perpetuall virginyte of our lady is a necessary artycle of our fayth.

And thus alwaye muste Tyndale vppon hys owne wordes, confesse that all the artycles reueled ferther by Cryste vnto hys chyrche, muste be byleued as fermely as the fayth taat was by Peter confessed / or ellys we be not onely dyscharged of the bylyefe of our ladyes perpetuall vyrginyte, whyche Tyndale is now yet broughte vnware to graunte for an artycle necessary syth it is now taught and knowen / but also of the bylyefe of Crystes deth, descencyon, resurreccyon, ascencyon, and of the godhed of the holy goste, wyth dyuerse other necessary poyntes mo.

But here it is to be consydered, that saynte Peter in cō fessynge Cryste to be the sonne of the lyuynge god / dyd cō fesse the very poynte wheruppon all the hole fayth hangeth. For in that poynte alone he confesseth that all hys doctryne muste nedes be byleued for trew, and all hys cō maundementes fulfylled. And theruppon it foloweth ferther, that syth Tyndale wyll byleue no more of hys doctryne then he can fynde wryten in the scrypture,²³ where as the scrypture it selfe sayth that all was neuer wryten / nor wyll not also byleue and obaye Crystes chyrch accordyng to Crystes commaundement / nor wyll not so myche as knowe it,²⁴ ²⁵ but fondely frameth an vnknowen, whom he for lacke of knowledge can neyther byleue nor obaye: yt foloweth I saye that Tyndale byleueth no pece of the fayth that saynte Peter confessed. And so he doth but pratle and prate of felynge fayth, wythout the felynge of any fayth at all, or any trewe bylyefe hystorycall or other.

And yet goth he forth in the boste of that artycle of the fayth, whiche as hym selfe confesseth was out of Peter his confessyon. For he sayth that saynt Peter was not ware of Crystes passyon when he made that confessyon.

Tyndale. That offerynge of Crystes body and bloude, is a satisfaccyon for the synne of all that repente, and a purchasynge of what so euer they can aske to kepe them in fauour, and that they synne no more.

More. Treuth is it that the passyon of Cryste and offerynge vp of hym selfe vnto hys father vppon the crosse, is a satysfaccyon for the synne of all that repente / so that we repente a ryght and effectually, by confessyon, contrycyon, and by penytencyall dedes / reuengynge our synnes vppon our selfe wyth good workes of cheryte, ye more largely encreaced towarde our neyghbours, doynge frutefull penaunce, bryngynge forth the frutes of penaunce, and accordynge to the coūsayle of saynt Iohn̄ Baptyst,²⁶ not sleyght frutes, symple, and syngle, but frutes good, greate, and worthy / and yet not of them selfe worthy, but suche as the satysfaccyon of Cryste maketh worthy, wythout whyche we coude no thynge satysfye / but wyth whyche we maye, syth hys pleasure is that we so sholde, and not so take his deth for so full satysfaccyon of all to gether, that we sholde therfore be carelesse and slouthfull to do any penaunce our selfe for our owne synne.

Tyndale wyll saye to thys that he can be content, that we sholde do good dedes but not by waye of penaunce for our synne / and that we sholde somtyme fast and otherwyse afflycte our fleshe, to the entent to tame our fleshe agaynst the synne to come / but nothynge to punyshe it the more for any synne that is paste.

Now is thys teachynge of Tyndale myche lyke, as thoughe he wolde aduyse vs, be neuer the better bycause thou haste be noughte, do neuer the better bycause thou haste done euyll, runne neuer y• faster forth in vertue, bycause thou haste longe sytten styll in synne.

But saynt Poule agaynst Tyndals doctrine, ran forth the faster bycause he began later, and toke the more payne for the fayth, bycause he had ben a persecutour of y• fayth. And though he neuer thought thus, yf I hadde ben soner conuerted I wolde haue done lesse good: yet had he thys mynde, that bycause he began so late he wold do y• more / & bycause he had ben bad,²⁷ he wolde be the better / as hym self counsayleth other, as ye haue exhybyted and gyuen your membres to serue vncl[…]nes and iniquyte, from iniquite to iniquite / so now agayne exhibyte and gyue your membres to serue ryghteousnes, that ye maye be sanctyfyed.

Tyndale. And Cryste answered vppon thys rocke I wyll byelde my congregacyon / that is vppon thys fayth. And agaynst the rocke of this fayth, can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, none errour preuayle. […]or what so euer any man hath commytted / yf he repente and come to thys rocke he is safe. And that thys fayth is the onely waye by the whyche the chyrche goeth vnto god, and vnto the enherytaunce of all hys rychesse / testyfye all the apostles and prophetes, and all the scrypture wyth sygnes and myracles, and all the bloud of martyrs. And who so euer go to god and to forgyuenesse of synnes or saluacyon by any other way then thys / the same is an heretyke out of the ryghte waye, and not of Crystes chyrche.

More. Lo these wordes of Tyndale seme very gaye and gloryouse. But when ye shall well examyne them / as gaye as the hed glytereth wyth the pretexte of Crystes owne holy wordes, yet shall ye fynde the tayle of hys tale as poysened as any serpent. For where he bosteth and sayth, Agaynst the rocke of this fayth can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, nor none errour preuayle / for what so euer synne any man hath commytted, yf he repent and come to thys rocke he is safe: ye maye not forgete that he meaneth all way, that he whyche repenteth and cometh to the rocke of thys fayth is safe for all hys synnes, wythout confessyon or any endeuour thorow good workes towarde satysfaccyon / and so hys hole tale is a false heresye.

ye shall also consyder that hys tale hangeth euyll to gether / and the wordes by whyche he proueth that agaynste the rocke of thys fayth, there can no synne, nor no deuyll, nor none errour, preuayle, do not proue that poynte no thynge at all. For though it were trewe that he sayth, that what so euer synne a man haue commytted, yf he repente & come to the rocke of thys fayth he is saufe: yet myght the deuyll preuayle agaynst the rocke of y• fayth / syth it myght be that the deuyll myght brynge a man hauyng that fayth in to a dedely synne that he sholde happely neuer repente. And therfore yf Tyndale wyll bost that the deuyll can not in any person preuayle agaynste the rocke of that fayth / but that the rocke of that fayth shall saue any man yt onys geteth vp theron: he maye not set If nor And therunto / but he must tell vs then, that eyther who so stande vppon that rocke shall not synne at all, or ellys that he shall be sure to repente hys synne, or fynally that synne he neuer so faste he shall be saufe inough whether he repente or not. For ellys may the deuyll preuayle agaynst y• rocke of that fayth, by bryngynge a man that standeth on it in to mortall synne whyche he shall neuer repent.

In lyke wyse where he sayth that none errour can preuayle agaynst y• rocke of this fayth, that saynt Peter there confessed: I wolde fayne wyt whyther he meane that who so euer onys byleue it, can neuer fall fro that bylyefe, nor by any errour byleue the contrary / or els that a man maye fall fro it by errour / but then yf he repente and returne agayne therto he shall be saufe. If he meane in the fyrst maner, he muste then put away his If / and not saye yf he repente hys errour and retourne agayne to the rocke of that fayth, then he shall be saufe / for as mych as by that meanyng he shall neuer fall in errour, and therfore shall neuer nede to repente. But then mu[…]e he proue vs by scrypture that pryuylege gyuen of god to euery man that hath onys goten that fayth / whych poynt he shall neuer proue whyle he lyueth, but that a man that hath it, maye by hys owne defaut, malyce, or neclygence, eyther at the instygacyon of the deuyll, or of suche heretykes as are warse then the deuyll, fall agayne therfro / as many hath done ere thys that onys byleued full ryght, tyll the spyryte of pryde, enuy, and malyce, blowen into theyr hartes by the deuyll or the deuyls instrumentes, haue brought them in to the wronge.

Now yf he meane in the secunde maner, that is to saye that a man whyche hath that fayth may fall therfro / but for all that the gatys of hell can not preuayle agaynst any man that onys hath it, bycause he that falleth from it shall be saufe yf he repente hys errour and retourne agayn to it: yf he meane thus he sayth nothynge to purpose, excepte he saye whyche he shall neuer proue, that who so haue it and fall from it, shall be sure that he shall repente and retourne agayne / for ellys the gates of hell may preuayle agaynste hym for lacke of repentynge and retournynge.

And then yet forther, yf he saye whyche he shall neuer proue that who so euer onys haue that fayth, yf he fall frō it shall be sure to repente and retourne agayne[…] and so shall be saufe by repentynge: he muste then as I sayde before put awaye hys If / and not say yf he repente, but he muste saye boldely that he surely shall repente and retourne, and so by repentynge and fayth be saued.

And thus good reders ye se that thys man fareth as one that walked barefote vppon a felde full of thornys, that woteth not where to trede.

I wolde be very loth to myssetake hym, or wyllyngly to lette passe and dyssymule any sense that he myghte meane in hys owne wordes, by whyche hys sayenge myght be saued and be borne. But in good fayth, I se no ferther thyng that he myght po[…]syble meane in hys wordes, y• hell gates shall not preuayle agaynst the roche of that fayth, but this that I haue all redy shewed you / syth he meneth it of euery man, that hell gates shall not preuayle agaynst ye rocke of that fayth in any man / excepte he wolde meane that a man may fall from that fayth, and neuer after repente nor turne agayne / but yet the gates of hell can not preuayle agaynste the rocke of that fayth, bycause a man can not synne all the whyle he kepeth that fayth. And yf he meane so / yet sayth he then as false as any thyng can be false. For saynt Poule sayth playnely,²⁸ that he maye kepe fayth and yet fall from cheryte. whyche thyng yf Tyndale glose and say, that then hys fayth is dede, & a dede fayth is no fayth / and that therfore whyle he kepeth fayth he can not synne, bycause that when he synneth he kylleth hys fayth: I answere that though fayth by synne wax dede, it waxeth not dede in the nature of fayth or bylyefe / no more then y• soule that dyeth by dedely synne, waxeth dede in y• nature of the soule, but is a quycke soule styll as he was before, though he be oute of grace / as the dede fayth is out of the lyuely workes of cheryte,²⁹ and is as saynt Poule sayed of wantō wydowes, that the wydow which lyueth in delyces is dede euen whyle she lyueth.

But now yf he meane but so, that fayth is so stronge of it selfe for our saluacyon, that synne nor errour can not preuayle agaynste it, bycause fayth wyll alwaye preuayle agaynste them tyll some of them entre in and kyll it: thys were a goodly boste of hym to saye, that the chyrch be non[…] but electes, and all that be electes haue the ryght bylyefe whyche saynt Peter confessed / and they maye be bolde and sure that they whyche haue that fayth be goddes electes, and in hys fauour, and euer shalbe by reason of that fayth. For Cryste sayed that vppon the rocke, that is to wyt vppon that fayth he wolde byelde hys chyrch, & that agaynst the rocke of this fayth the gates of hell shall not preuayle, that is to saye agaynste this fayth can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, no errour preuayle / for there shall no synne nor no errour preuayle agaynste thys fayth but yf it kyll thys fayth. Tyndale to put a man in […]uerty of heuen by y• strength of fayth, in thys facyon that none errour shall preuayle agaynste fayth, as longe as the fayth preuayleth agaynste it, nor tyll the fayth be the febler and be ouercomē and kylled: doth myche lyke as though he wolde saye to you, be bolde I warraunt you & fere no deth, for you haue lyfe in you / & as longe as your lyfe lasteth you can neuer be dede / and lyke wyse as longe as ye kepe the trew fayth ye can neuer be false heretykes / nor as longe as ye stande styll in the state of saluacyon ye can neuer be dampned. Here were a goodly tale were it not? And syth that neyther thys may serue hym nor any that I haue towched before / and vtterly I can not diuine what he myghte mene ellys, takynge the waye yt he taketh, in swaruyng fro the knowē catholyke chyrche vnto hys vnknowen chyrche of electes, whom he calleth all repentaunt synners that byleue the fayth that saynt Peter confessed: I can not perceyue nor I trowe no man ellys, but that hys wordes wyll euyll stande to gether.

And yet when he hath thus wysely handeled it / then as though the mater were well and suffycyently proued, goth he forth wyth the boste and sayth.

Tyndale. That thys fayth is the onely waye, by the whyche the chyrche of Cryste goth vnto god, and vnto the enherytaunce of all rychesse / testyfye all the apostles, and prophetes, and all the scrypture, wyth sygnes and myracles, and all the bloude of martyrs. And who so euer goth vnto god and forgyuenesse of synnes or saluacyon, by any other way then thys / the same is an heretyke out of the ryght waye and not of Crystes chyrche.

More. Lo here be lusty hyghe wordes eyther false or ellys of lytell effecte. For yf he meane that no man may go to saluacyon by any other thynge, wythout thys fayth that […]aynte Peter professed / then be they trew. But then are they to no purpose spoken, nor haue no place in thys mater, in which he reproueth the knowen chyrch, in that they go by confessyon, contrycyon, workes of penaunce, & workes of mercy, towarde the remyssyon of the dette of theyr payne and satysfaccyon. For hym selfe can not saye naye, but that we do all agre that wyth all that euer we can do, we can not gete forth one ynche to heuenward, without the fayth that saynt Peter confessed.

Now yf he meane not that waye, but that we be playne heretykes and oute of Crystes chyrche, yf hauynge that fayth that saynte Peter confessed, we go to heuenwarde wyth any other thyng bysyde then testyfye all the apostles and prophetes, and all the scrypture and sygnes and myracles, & all the bloude of martyrs: then Tyndale is a starke heretyke in so sayenge. For all these wyll testyfye, that we muste byleue many thynges more then saynte Peter dyde there confesse / or ellys we shall not onely be dyscharged of byleuynge the sacramentes of penaunce, confyrmacyon, extreme vnccyō, order, and matrymony / but baptysme also and the sacrament of the aulter to. For of none of all these dyd saynt Peter make any mencion in his cōfessyon there / nor so myche as of Crystes deth neyther, wherof as Tyndale sayth he had at that tyme no knowlege. So that in Tyndales affermynge that the onely fayth there by Peter confessed, is suffycyent and the onely waye to heuyn: we shall haue Tyndale hym selfe to testyfye y• Tyndale hym selfe sayth vntrewe.

yet wolde I fayne in good fayth fynde and brynge it forth, yf I coulde any thyng ymagine, that he myght seme to mene ryght / nor neuer wyll I wyttyngly for the preferment of my part, cōstrue myne aduersaryes wordes wrōg. And therfore, what yf we myghte vnderstande Tyndale thus, as though he ment that the fayth there confessed by Peter is for euery man suffycient / bycause that who so byleue that Cryste is the sonne of the lyuynge god, it can not be but that he shall byleue also that he is trewe in all hys wordes / and therfore he that so byleueth can not fayle to byleue therwyth / all that euer Cryst shall teche hym.

All be it that thys wyll not very fully serue hym, and also hym selfe speketh no thynge of it: yet is this as helpe me god the best glose that I can deuyse for hym. But now doth hym selfe caste awaye thys defence / when he sayth in the seconde chapyter folowynge, that there is none errour noysome, but yf it be agaynste the promyses / so that in all other thynges he graunteth and affermeth playnely by expresse wordes yt a man may erre wythout any parell, euyn though that the trouth contrary to hys errour be wryten in holy scrypture, w[…]che is a meruelouse worde in myne ere. For by thys ye may se, that he agreeth that a man may byleue yt Cryst is goddes sonne, & yet byleue the contrary of some thynges that Cryste shall tell hym, though he tell it hym in scrypture. And therfore he wyll ye se well none of my glose, bycause he wyll not stande in my daynger for it.

And in dede, all be it hym selfe shall for hym selfe neuer fynde a better / yet myne wyll not suffycyently serue hym neyther. For a man myght byleue that Cryste were goddes sonne, and therby byleue also all that Cryste wolde teche hym. But yet myghte it be that he wolde byleue no more, then those thynges onely that Cryste wolde teche hym personally present wyth hym by his owne mouth. For though he byleued that Cryste were goddes sonne, and wolde byleue therfore all that he wolde tell hym: yet myghte he for all that mystruste and not byleue all other men, that wolde eyther in word or wrytyng tell hym a tale as tolde to them by Crystes owne mouth. ye & this myght he do, all though they preued it wyth myracles / yf he were of Tyndals stomake, that can as the Iewys coulde,³⁰ ascrybe goddes myracles to Belzabub, and call goddes hygh meruelouse workes illusyons and wonders of the deuyll / as he calleth all the myracles wrought by god in hys chyrche synnes the apostles dayes.

Thys myghte one do that byleued Cryste to be goddes sonne, and to haue redemed vs also by his bloud. And this doth in dede both Tyndale & Marten hys mayster, which byleue of Crystes wordes no more then is wryten / nor of the wryten wordes no more then they lyste / and the remanaunt but as they lyste, syth they draw them to what sense they lyste, agaynste all the olde holy doctours, and all the chyrche of Cryst. And thus it appereth yt neyther my glose nor any glose ellys, can saue Tyndals tale from playne pestylent heresye / bothe in that he sayth there nedeth no more to be byleued, and also in that he sayth that the bylyefe alone is suffycyente for saluacyon / and that yt is heresye to saye that bysyde the bylyefe, any man vnto saluacyon shold nede any thynge ellys. For though he put in for shame repentaunce therunto, wyth Iffes as ye se: yet shall ye perceyue as well in hys chapyters folowynge, as in thys same chapyter after, that he putteth fayth alone for suffycyent, and repentaunce as a shadowe that neuer can but folowe it. And yet all hys thynges euer so darkely, that he wolde fayne leue hym selfe some startynge hole.

But surely yt ys harde for hym to starte out fro these playne wordes of hys owne: who so euer go to god by any other waye, then thys fayth that saynte Peter confessed / the same is an heretyke out of the ryght waye, and not of Crystes chyrche. For thys is no more to saye, but who so euer bysyde the bare bylyefe, wyth as bare repentynge, adde confessyon, or for synne punysshe hym selfe by penaunce, or doth the better after bycause he hath done euyll byfore, and hopeth that god shall eyther rewarde hym the more, or haue the more mercy on hym, or in purgatory punysshe hym the lesse: he is a starke heretyke. And of trouth so he is in dede yf thys false tale be trewe / and all trewe men, and all holy sayntes, and all holy scrypture false.

But now gothe he forthe, not in the profe but in the prayse, and sayth.

Tyndale. For thys knowlege maketh me a man of the chyrche.

More. whyche knowledge? the knowledge that a man nedeth no mo artycles in hys fayth now, then saynt Peter confesseth then? and that he maye not bysyde repentaunce and bylyefe, vse any other waye to heuen / that is to wytte he maye not therwythall, vse as a waye to heuen or to remyssyon, any sacramentall shryfte, or penytencyall workes, or dedes of cheryte towarde satysfaccyon? The knowledge of thys fayth maketh Tyndale a man of the chyrche as he sayth. But of whyche chyrche trowe ye? truely not of the chyrch of Cryste, whych bysyde that fayth hath instytuted ye fayth in his blessed sacramentes & dyuers other artycles besyde / & which hath playnely declared yt all be it ye knowlege of hym & hys pleasure by fayth, be such a way toward heuen, yt without it we cā not come thyther: yet if we ioyne not to y• knowlege good dedes or purpose of good workes neyther can that knowlege nor repentaunce neyther serue vs for a suffycyent waye to heuen. And therfore Tyndale is not by thys knowlege made a man of Crystes trewe chyrche / but syth he is content wyth the bare knowledge and setteth all good workes at so short, he is made therby a man of the false chyrch of the deuyll, that is a lyar hymselfe and father of all suche lyars.

Tyndale. The chyrche is Crystes body Collos[…]. 1. And euery person of the chyrche is a member of Cryste. Ephe. 5. Now it is no member of Cryste, that hath not Crystes spyryte in it / as it is no parte of me nor member of my body, wherin my soule is not present and quyckeneth it. And then yf a man be none of Crystes, he is not of the chyrche.

More. Here Tyndale runneth in iuglynge, by equyuocacyon of thys worde chyrche. For where as hym selfe hath byfore thys tyme, confessed in wrytyng in thys same boke to whiche I answere now, that the chyrch in many places of holy scrypture is the hole multytude that professe the fayth of Cryste, whyther they be good or badde: here he fareth as though there were no man of the chyrche, but onely good folke alone in whom is the spyryte of Cryste / wyth an ensample put of the body, hauyng some dede parte hangyng theron, wherin were not the soule to quycken it and gyue it lyfe, whyche therfore he sayth is no parte of the body. But he forgeteth that somtyme there is some member astoyned and lacketh bothe lyfe and felynge / whyche yet by the reason that it is not clene cut of and caste awaye, receyueth after lyfe and felynge agayne / as many a dedely synner doth in the body of Crystes chyrche take lyfe agayne, that hath in synne lyen full longe dede.

But now is he yet of thys mynde, that the fayth whych hym selfe hath descrybed, is the thynge that it onys goten and hadde of any man / kepeth in the spyryte of god so fast in hys harte, that he ys surely a quycke member of the chyrche that ys Crystes body / and that he can not lese that fayth nor that spyryte at any tyme after that he hath onys goten it / so that he haue it as he sayth in another chapyter after, felyngly and not onely hystorycally.

And who so euer haue not the fayth that he descrybeth hym, he rekeneth for an heretyke / and onely hys fayth for the trew, and the byleuers therof for the trew chyrche.

Now hys fayth haue ye herde often inough, that onely fayth suffyseth or at the leste wyse wyth repentynge / & that shryfte or penaunce toward heuen, or remyssyon of synnes is heresye / and that to wurshyppe the blessed sacrament of the aulter is dyshonour to god / and that there is no purgatory / and that frerys maye well & laufully wedde nonnes / and a greate rable of suche deuelysshe heresyes mo, of such maner suit and sort, that as our sauyour sayed vnto saynt Peter at the confessyon of hys fayth,³¹ Thou arte blessed Symon the sonne of Ionas, For flesshe and bloude hath not reueled thys vnto the, but my father that is in heuyn: so wyll he saye to Tyndale, for confessynge of thys false fayth of his: Thou art accursed Tyndale the sonne of the deuyll / for neyther fleshe nor bloude hath taught the these heresyes / but thyn owne father the deuyll that is in hell. And thus well hath he quytte hym in thys chapyter.

Here endeth the confutacyon of thys chapyter of Tyndale, whyther the chyrche can erre.

[…]atth. 28. ↩
Matth. 1[…]. ↩
Matth. 16. ↩
Matth. 28. ↩
Iohā. 15. Iohā. 6. ↩
Matth. 13. Matt[…]. 1[…] ↩
Iohā. 6. ↩
1. Cor. 13.
↩
Iacobi. 2. ↩
Io[…]. 16. ↩
1. Ti[…]. […].
↩
Psalmo. 67. ↩
Ecc[…]ias[…]icae. 3. ↩
[…]uc[…]. 11. ↩
M[…]t[…]. 1[…]. ↩
[…]uc[…]. 1[…]. ↩
Roma. 8. ↩
Psalmo. 10[…]. ↩
Matthei. 25. ↩
Matt[…]. 25. ↩
Matt[…]. 25. ↩
1. Timoth. 5.
↩
Iohā. vltimo. ↩
Matth. 18. ↩
Lucae. 10. ↩
Matthei. 3. ↩
Roma. 6 ↩
1. Cor. 13.
↩
1. Timoth. 5.
↩
[…] ↩
Matth. 16. ↩

Chapter 2 of 15

whyther the chyrche can erre

Footnotes