Chapter 4

HENRY the 8th, the unconquered King of England, a Prince adorned with all the Vertues that become a great Monarch; having some Differences of no small Consequence with Charles the most serene Prince of Castile, sent me into Flanders as his Ambassador, for treating and composing Matters between them. I was Collegue and Companion to that incomparable Man Cuthbert Tonstal, whom the King made lately Master of the Rolls, with such an Universal Applause; of whom I will say nothing, not because I fear that the Testimony of a Friend will be suspected, but rather because his Learning and Vertues are greater than that they can be set forth with advantage by me, and they are so well known, that they need not my Commendations, unless I would, according to the Proverb, Shew the Sun with a Lanthorn. Those that were appointed by the Prince to treat with us, met us at Bruges, according to Agreement: they were all worthy Men. The Markgrave of Bruges was their Head, and the chief Man among them; but he that was esteemed the wisest, and that spoke for the rest, was George Temse the Provost of Casselsee; both Art and Nature had concurred to make him eloquent: He was very learned in the Law; and as he had a great Capacity, so by a long practice in Affairs, he was very dextrous at them. After we had met once and again, and could not come to an Agreement, they went to Brussels for some days to receive the Prince's Pleasure. And since our Business did admit of it, I went to Antwerp: While I was there, among many that visited me, there was one that was more acceptable to me than any other; Peter Giles born at Antwerp, who is a Man of great Honour, and of a good Rank in his Town; yet it is not such as he deserves: for I do not know if there be any where to be found a learneder and a better bred young Man: for as he is both a very worthy Person, and a very knowing Man; so he is so civil to all Men, and yet so particularly kind to his Friends, and is so full of Candor and Affection, that there is not perhaps above one or two to be found any where, that is in all respects so perfect a Friend as he is: He is extraordinarily modest, there is no artifice in him; and yet no Man has more of a prudent simplicity than he has: His Conversation was so pleasant and so innocently chearful, that his Company did in a great measure lessen any longings to go back to my Country, and to my Wife and Children, which an absence of four months had quickned very much. One day as I was returning home from Mass at St. Maries, which is the chief Church, and the most frequented of any in Antwerp, I saw him by accident talking with a Stranger, that seemed past the flower of his Age; his Face was tanned, he had a long Beard, and his Cloak was hanging carelesly about him, so that by his Looks and Habit, I concluded he was a Seaman. As soon as Peter saw me, he came and saluted me; and as I was returning his Civility, he took me aside, and pointing to him with whom he had been discoursing, he said, Do you see that Man? I was just thinking to bring him to you. I answered, He should have been very welcome on your account: And on his own too, replied he, if you knew the Man; for there is none alive that can give you so copious an account of unknown Nations and Countries as he can do; which I know you very much desire. Then said I, I did not guess amiss, for at first sight I took him for a Seaman: But you are much mistaken, said he, for he has not sailed as a Seaman, but as a Traveller, or rather as a Philosopher; for this Raphael, who from his Family carries the Name of Hythloday, as he is not ignorant of the Latine Tongue, so he is eminently learned in the Greek, having applied himself more particularly to that than to the former, because he had given himself much to Philosophy, in which he knew that the Romans have left us nothing that is valuable, except what is to be found in Seneca and Cicero. He is a Portuguese by birth, and was so desirous of seeing the World, that he divided his Estate among his Brothers, and run Fortunes with Americus Vesputius, and bore a share in three of his four Voyages, that are now published: only he did not return with him in his last, but obtained leave of him almost by force, that he might be one of those four and twenty who were left at the farthest place at which they touched, in their last Voyage to New Castile. The leaving him thus, did not a little gratify one that was more fond of travelling than of returning home, to be buried in his own Country: for he used often to say, That the way to Heaven was the same from all places; and he that had no Grave, had the Heavens still over him. Yet this disposition of Mind had cost him dear, if God had not been very gracious to him; for after he, with five Castilians, had travelled over many Countries, at last, by a strange good fortune, he got to Ceylon, and from thence to Calicut, and there he very happily found some Portuguese Ships; and so, beyond all Mens expectations, he came back to his own Country. When Peter had said this to me, I thanked him for his kindness, in intending to give me the acquaintance of a Man, whose Conversation he knew would be so acceptable to me; and upon that Raphael and I embraced one another: And after those Civilities were past, which are ordinary for Strangers upon their first meeting, We went all to my House, and entring into the Garden, sat down on a green Bank, and entertained one another in Discourse. He told us, that when Vesputius had sailed away, he and his Companions that staid behind in New-Castile, did by degrees insinuate themselves into the People of the Country, meeting often with them, and treating them gently: and at last they grew not only to live among them without danger, but to converse familiarly with them; and got so far into the Heart of a Prince, whose Name and Country I have forgot, that he both furnished them plentifully with all things necessary, and also with the conveniences of travelling; both Boats when they went by Water, and Wagons when they travelled over Land; and he sent with them a very faithful Guide, who was to introduce and recommend them to such other Princes as they had a mind to see: and after many days Journey, they came to Towns, and Cities, and to Common-Wealths, that were both happily governed, and well-peopled. Under the Aequator, and as far on both sides of it as the Sun moves, there lay vast Deserts that were parched with the perpetual heat of the Sun; the Soil was withered, all Things look'd dismally, and all Places were either quite uninhabited, or abounded with Wild Beasts and Serpents, and some few Men, that were neither less wild, nor less cruel than the Beasts themselves. But as they went farther, a new Scene opened, all things grew milder, the Air less burning, the Soil more verdant, and even the Beasts were less wild: And at last there are Nations, Towns, and Cities, that have not only mutual commerce among themselves, and with their Neighbours, but trade both by Sea and Land, to very remote Countries. There they found the Conveniencies of seeing many Countries on all Hands, for no Ship went any Voyage into which he and his Companions were not very welcome. The first Vessels that they saw were Flat-bottomed, their Sails were made of Reeds and Wicker woven close together, only some were made of Leather; but afterwards they found Ships made with round Keels, and Canvass Sails, and in all things like our Ships: and the Seamen understood both Astronomy and Navigation. He got wonderfully into their favour, by shewing them the use of the Needle, of which till then they were utterly ignorant; and whereas they sailed before with great caution, and only in Summer-time, now they count all Seasons alike, trusting wholly to the Loadstone, in which they are perhaps more secure than safe; so that there is reason to fear, that this Discovery which was thought would prove so much to their Advantage, may by their imprudence become an occasion of much Mischief to them. But it were too long to dwell on all that he told us he had observed in every place, it would be too great a digression from our present purpose: and what-ever is necessary to be told, chiefly concerning the wise and prudent Institutions that he observed among civilized Nations, may perhaps be related by us on a more proper occasion. We ask'd him many questions concerning all these things, to which he answered very willingly; only we made no enquiries after Monsters, than which nothing is more common; for every where one may hear of ravenous Dogs and Wolves, and cruel Men-eaters; but it is not so easy to find States that are well and wisely governed.

But as he told us of many things that were amiss in those New-found Nations, so he reckoned up not a few things, from which Patterns might be taken for correcting the Errors of these Nations among whom we live; of which an account may be given, as I have already promised, at some other time; for at present I intend only to relate these Particulars that he told us of the Manners and Laws of the Ʋtopians: but I will begin with the Occasion that led us to speak of that Common-Wealth. After Raphael had discoursed with great judgment of the Errors that were both among us and these Nations, of which there was no small number, and had treated of the wise Institutions both here and there, and had spoken as distinctly of the Customs and Government of every Nation through which he had past, as if he had spent his whole Life in it; Peter being struck with admiration, said, I wonder, Raphael, how it comes that you enter into no King's Service, for I am sure there are none to whom you would not be very acceptable: for your Learning and Knowledg, both of Men and Things, is such, that you would not only entertain them very pleasantly, but be of good use to them, by the Examples that you could set before them, and the Advices that you could give them; and by this means you would both serve your own Interest, and be of great use to all your Friends. As for my Friends, answered he, I need not be much concerned, having already done all that was incumbent on me toward them; for when I was not only in good Health, but fresh and young, I distributed that among my Kindred and Friends, which other People do not part with till they are old and sick; and then they unwillingly give among them, that which they can enjoy no longer themselves. I think my Friends ought to rest contented with this, and not to expect that for their sakes I should enslave my self to any King whatsoever. Soft and fair, said Peter, I do not mean that you should be a Slave to any King, but only that you should assist them, and be useful to them. The change of the Word, said he, does not alter the Matter. But term it as you will, replied Peter, I do not see any other way in which you can be so useful, both in private to your Friends, and to the Publick, and by which you can make your own Condition happier. Happier! answered Raphael, is that to be compassed in a way so abhorrent to my Genius? Now I live as I will, to which I believe few Courtiers can pretend: and there are so very many that court the Favour of great Men, that there will be no great loss, if they are not troubled either with me, or with others of my temper. Upon this, I said, I perceive Raphael that you neither desire Wealth nor Greatness; and indeed I value and admire such a Man much more than I do any of the great Men in the World. Yet I think you would do a thing well-becoming so generous and so philosophical a Soul as yours is, if you would apply your Time and Thoughts to Publick Affairs, even though you may happen to find that a little uneasy to your self; and this you can never do with so much advantage, as by being taken into the Council of some great Prince, and by setting him on to noble and worthy Things, which I know you would do if you were in such a Post; for the Springs, both of Good and Evil, flow over a whole Nation, from the Prince, as from a lasting Fountain. So much Learning as you have, even without practice in Affairs; or so great a practice as you have had, without any other Learning, would render you a very fit Counsellor to any King whatsoever, You are doubly mistaken, said he, Mr. More, both in your Opinion of me, and in the Judgment that you make of things: for as I have not that Capacity that you fancy to be in me; so if I had it, the Publick would not be one jot the better, when I had sacrificed my quiet to it. For most Princes apply themselves more to warlike Matters, than to the useful Arts of Peace; and in these I neither have any knowledg, nor do I much desire it: They are generally more set on acquiring new Kingdoms, right or wrong, than on governing those well that they have: and among the Ministers of Princes, there are none that either are not so wise as not to need any assistance, or at least that do not think themselves so wise, that they imagine they need none; and if they do court any, it is only those for whom the Prince has much personal Favour, whom by their Faunings and Flatteries they endeavour to fix to their own Interests: and indeed Nature has so made us, that we all love to be flattered, and to please our selves with our own Notions. The old Crow loves his Young, and the Ape his Cubs. Now if in such a Court, made up of Persons that envy all others, and do only admire themselves, one should but propose any thing that he had either read in History, or observed in his Travels, the rest would think that the Reputation of their Wisdom would sink, and that their Interests would be much depressed, if they could not run it down: And if all other things failed, then they would fly to this, That such or such things pleased our Ancestors, and it were well for us if we could but match them. They would set up their Rest on such an Answer, as a sufficient confutation of all that could be said; as if this were a great Mischief, that any should be found wiser than his Ancestors: But tho they willingly let go all the good Things that were among those of former Ages; yet if better things are proposed, they cover themselves obstinately with this excuse, of reverence to past Times. I have met with these proud, morose, and absurd Judgments of Things in many places, particularly once in England. Was you ever there, said I? Yes, I was, answered he, and staid some months there, not long after the Rebellion in the West was suppressed, with a great slaughter of the poor People that were engaged in it.

I was then much obliged to that reverend Prelate Iohn Morton Archbishop of Canterbury, Cardinal, and Chancellor of England; a Man, said he, Peter (for Mr. More knows well what he was) that was not less venerable for his Wisdom and Vertues, than for the high Character he bore: He was of a middle stature, not broken with Age; his looks begot Reverence rather than Fear; his Conversation was easy, but serious and grave; he took pleasure sometimes to try the force of those that came as Suiters to him upon Business, by speaking sharply, tho decently to them, and by that he discovered their Spirit and presence of Mind; with which he was much delighted, when it did not grow up to an impudence, as bearing a great resemblance to his own temper; and he look'd on such Persons as the fittest Men for Affairs. He spoke both gracefully and weightily; he was eminently skilled in the Law, and had a vast Understanding, and a prodigious Memory: and those excellent Talents with which Nature had furnished him, were improved by Study and Experience. When I was in England, the King depended much on his Councils, and the Government seemed to be chiefly supported by him; for from his Youth up, he had been all along practised in Affairs; and having passed through many Traverses of Fortune, he had acquired to his great cost, a vast stock of Wisdom: which is not soon lost, when it is purchased so dear. One day when I was dining with him, there hapned to be at Table one of the English Lawyers, who took occasion to run out in a high commendation of the severe execution of Justice upon Thieves, who, as he said, were then hanged so fast, that there were sometimes 20 on one Gibbet; and upon that he said, he could not wonder enough how it came to pass, that since so few escaped, there were yet so many Thieves left who were still robbing in all places. Upon this, I who took the boldness to speak freely before the Cardinal, said, There was no reason to wonder at the Matter, since this way of punishing Thieves, was neither just in it Self, nor good for the Publick; for as the Severity was too great, so the Remedy was not effectual; simple Theft not being so great a Crime, that it ought to cost a Man his Life; and no Punishment how severe soever, being able to restrain those from robbing, who can find out no other way of livelihood; and in this, said I, not only you in England, but a great part of the World, imitate some ill Masters, that are readier to chastise their Scholars, than to teach them. There are dreadful Punishments enacted against Thieves, but it were much better to make such good Provisions, by which every Man might be put in a Method how to live, and so be preserved from the fatal necessity of stealing, and of dying for it. There has been care enough taken for that, said he, there are many Handycrafts, and there is Husbandry, by which they may make a shift to live, unless they have a greater mind to follow ill Courses. That will not serve your turn, said I, for many lose their Limbs in Civil or Forreign Wars, as lately in the Cornish Rebellion, and some time ago in your Wars with France, who being thus mutilated in the Service of their King and Country, can no more follow their old Trades, and are too old to learn new Ones: But since Wars are only accidental Things, and have Intervals, let us consider those Things that fall out every day. There is a great number of Noble Men among you, that live not only idle themselves as Drones, subsisting by other Mens Labours, who are their Tenants, and whom they pare to the quick, and thereby raise their Revenues; this being the only instance of their Frugality, for in all other things they are Prodigal, even to the beggering of themselves: But besides this, they carry about with them a huge number of idle Fellows, who never learn'd any Art by which they may gain their Living; and these, as soon as either their Lord dies, or they themselves fall sick, are turned out of Doors; for your Lords are readier to feed idle People, than to take care of the sick; and often the Heir is not able to keep together so great a Family as his Predecessor did: Now when the Stomachs of those that are thus turned out of Doors, grow keen, they rob no less keenly; and what else can they do? for after that, by wandring about, they have worn out both their Health and their Cloaths, and are tattered, and look ghastly, Men of Quality will not entertain them, and poor Men dare not do it; knowing that one who has been bred up in Idleness and Pleasure, and who was used to walk about with his Sword and Buckler, despising all the Neighbourhood with an insolent Scorn, as far below him, is not fit for the Spade and Mattock: Nor will he serve a poor Man for so small a Hire, and in so low a Diet as he can afford. To this he answered, This sort of Men ought to be particularly cherished among us, for in them consists the Force of the Armies for which we may have occasion; since their Birth inspires them with a nobler sence of Honour, than is to be found among Tradesmen or Ploughmen. You may as well say, replied I, that you must cherish Thieves on the account of Wars, for you will never want the one, as long as you have the other; and as Robbers prove sometimes gallant Souldiers, so Souldiers prove often brave Robbers; so near an Alliance there is between those two sorts of Life. But this bad custom of keeping many Servants, that is so common among you, is not peculiar to this Nation. In France there is yet a more pestiferous sort of People, for the whole Country is full of Souldiers, that are still kept up in time of Peace; if such a state of a Nation can be called a Peace: and these are kept in Pay upon the same account that you plead for those Idle Retainers about Noble Men: this being a Maxim of those pretended Statesmen, That it is necessary for the Publick Safety, to have a good Body of Veteran Souldiers ever in readiness. They think raw Men are not to be depended on, and they sometimes seek Occasions for making War, that they may train up their Souldiers in the Art of cutting Throats, or as Salust observed, for keeping their Hands in use, that they may not grow dull by too long an intermission. But France has learn'd, to its cost, how dangerous it is to feed such Beasts. The Fate of the Romans, Carthaginians, and Syrians, and many other Nations, and Cities, which were both overturned, and quite ruined by those standing Armies, should make others wiser: and the folly of this Maxim of the French, appears plainly even from this, that their trained Souldiers find your raw Men prove often too hard for them; of which I will not say much, lest you may think I flatter the English Nation. Every day's Experience shews, that the Mechanicks in the Towns, or the Clowns in the Country, are not afraid of fighting with those idle Gentlemen, if they are not disabled by some Misfortune in their Body, or dispirited by extream Want. So that you need not fear, that those well-shaped and strong Men, (for it is only such that Noblemen love to keep about them, till they spoil them) who now grow feeble with ease, and are softned with their effeminate manner of Life, would be less fit for Action if they were well bred and well employed. And it seems very unreasonable, that for the prospect of a War, which you need never have but when you please, you should maintain so many idle Men, as will always disturb you in time of Peace, which is ever to be more considered than War. But I do not think that this necessity of Stealing, arises only from hence, there is another Cause of it that is more peculiar to England. What is that? said the Cardinal: The encrease of Pasture, said I, by which your Sheep, that are naturally mild, and easily kept in order, may be said now to devour Men, and unpeople, not only Villages, but Towns: For where-ever it is found, that the Sheep of any Soil yield a softer and richer Wool than ordinary, there the Nobility and Gentry, and even those Holy Men the Abbots, not contented with the old Rents which their Farms yielded, nor thinking it enough that they living at their ease, do no good to the Publick, resolve to do it Hurt instead of Good. They stop the course of Agriculture, inclose Grounds, and destroy Houses and Towns, reserving only the Churches, that they may lodg their Sheep in them: And as if Forrests and Parks had swallowed up too little Soil, those worthy Country-Men turn the best inhabited Places into Solitudes; for when any unsatiable Wretch, who is a Plague to this Country, resolves to inclose many thousand Acres of Ground, the Owners, as well as Tenants, are turned out of their Possessions, by Tricks, or by main Force, or being wearied out with ill Usage, they are forced to sell them. So those miserable People, both Men and Women, Married, Unmarried, Old and Young, with their Poor, but numerous Families, (since Country-Business requires many Hands) are all forced to change their Seats, not knowing whither to go; and they must sell for almost nothing, their Houshold-stuff, which could not bring them much Mony, even tho they might stay for a Buyer: when that little Mony is at an end, for it will be soon spent; what is left for them to do, but either to steal, and so to be hanged, (God knows how justly) or to go about and beg? And if they do this, they are put in Prison as idle Vagabonds; whereas they would willingly work, but can find none that will hire them; for there is no more occasion for Country Labour, to which they have been bred, when there is no Arable Ground left. One Shepherd can look after a Flock, which will stock an extent of Ground that would require many hands, if it were to be ploughed and reaped. This likewise raises the price of Corn in many places. The price of Wool is also so risen, that the poor People who were wont to make Cloth, are no more able to buy it; and this likewise makes many of them idle: For since the increase of Pasture, God has punished the Avarice of the Owners, by a Rot among the Sheep, which has destroyed vast numbers of them, but had been more justly laid upon the Owners themselves. But suppose the Sheep should encrease ever so much, their Price is not like to fall; since tho they cannot be called a Monopoly, because they are not engrossed by one Person, yet they are in so few hands, and these are so rich, that as they are not prest to sell them sooner than they have a mind to it, so they never do it till they have raised the Price as high as is possible. And on the same account it is, that the other kinds of Cattel are so dear, and so much the more, because that many Villages being pulled down, and all Country-Labour being much neglected, there are none that look after the breeding of them. The Rich do not breed Cattel as they do Sheep, but buy them Lean, and at low Prices; and after they have fatned them on their Grounds, they sell them again at high rates. And I do not think that all the Inconveniences that this will produce, are yet observed; for as they sell the Cattle dear, so if they are consumed faster then the breeding Countries from which they are brought, can afford them; then the stock most decrease, and this must needs end in a great Scarcity; and by these means this your Island, that seemed as to this particular, the happiest in the World, will suffer much by the cursed Avarice of a few Persons; besides that, the rising of Corn makes all People lessen their Families as much as they can; and what can those who are dismissed by them do, but either Beg or Rob? And to this last, a Man of a great Mind is much sooner drawn than to the former. Luxury likewise breaks in apace upon you, to set forward your Poverty and Misery; there is an excessive Vanity in Apparel, and great Cost in Diet; and that not only in Noblemens Families, but even among Tradesmen, and among the Farmers themselves, and among all Ranks of Persons. You have also many infamous Houses, and besides those that are known, the Taverns and Alehouses are no better; add to these, Dice, Cards, Tables, Football, Tennis, and Coits, in which Mony runs fast away; and those that are initiated into them, must in conclusion betake themselves to robbing for a supply. Banish those Plagues, and give order that these who have dispeopled so much Soil, may either rebuild the Villages that they have pulled down, or let out their Grounds to such as will do it: Restrain those engrossings of the Rich, that are as bad almost as Monopolies; leave fewer Occasions to Idleness; let Agriculture be set up again, and the Manufacture of the Wooll be regulated, that so there may be Work found for these Companies of Idle People, whom want Forces to be Thieves, or who now being idle Vagabonds, or useless Servants, will certainly grow Thieves at last. If you do not find a Remedy to these Evils, it is a vain thing to boast of your Severity of punishing Theft; which tho it may have the appearance of Justice, yet in it self it is neither just nor convenient: for if you suffer your People to be ill Educated, and their Manners to be corrupted from their Infancy, and then punish them for those Crimes to which their first Education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make Thieves, and then punish them?

[…] allow of it; upon the same Grounds, Laws may be made to allow of Adultery and Perjury in some Cases: for God having taken from us the Right of disposing, either of our own, or of other Peoples Lives, if it is pretended that the mutual Consent of Men in making Laws, allowing of Manslaughter in Cases in which God has given us no Example, frees People from the Obligation of the Divine Law, and so makes Murder a lawful Action; What is this, but to give a preference to Humane Laws before the Divine? And if this is once admitted, by the same Rule Men may in all other things put what Restrictions they please upon the Laws of God. If by the Mosaical Law, tho it was rough and severe, as being a Yoke laid on an obstinate and servile Nation, Men were only fined, and not put to death for Theft; we cannot imagine that in this new Law of Mercy, in which God treats us with the tenderness of a Father, he has given us a greater License to Cruelty, than he did to the Iews. Upon these Reasons it is, that I think the putting Thieves to death is not lawful; and it is plain and obvious that it is absurd, and of ill Consequence to the Common-Wealth, that a Thief and a Murderer should be equally punished: for if a Robber sees that his Danger is the same, if he is convicted of Theft, as if he were guilty of Murder, this will naturally set him on to kill the Person whom otherwise he would only have robbed, since if the Punishment is the same, there is more security, and less danger of discovery, when he that can best make it is put out of the way; so that the terrifying Thieves too much, provokes them to cruelty.

But as to the Question, What more convenient way of Punishment can be found? I think it is much easier to find out that, than to invent any thing that is worse; Why should we doubt but the way that was so long in use among the old Romans, who understood so well the Arts of Government, was very proper for their Punishment? they condemned such as they found guilty of great Crimes, to work their whole Lives in Quarries, or to dig in Mines with Chains about them. But the Method that I liked best, was that which I observed in my Travels in Persia, among the Polylerits, who are a considerable and well-governed People. They pay a yearly Tribute to the King of Persia; but in all other respects they are a free Nation, and governed by their own Laws. They lie far from the Sea, and are environed with Hills; and being contented with the Productions of their own Country, which is very fruitful, they have little commerce with any other Nation; and as they, according to the Genius of their Country, have no appetite of inlarging their Borders; so their Mountains, and the Pension that they pay to the Persian, secure them from all Invasions. Thus they have no Wars among them; they live rather conveniently than splendidly, and may be rather called a Happy Nation, than either Eminent or Famous; for I do not think that they are known so much as by Name to any but their next Neighbours. Those that are found guilty of Theft among them, are bound to make restitution to the Owner, and not as it is in other places, to the Prince, for they reckon that the Prince has no more right to the stollen Goods than the Thief; but if that which was stollen is no more in being, then the Goods of the Thieves are estimated, and Restitution being made out of them, the Remainder is given to their Wives, and Children: And they themselves are condemned to serve in the Publick Works, but are neither imprisoned, nor chained, unless there hapned to be some extraordinary Circumstances in their Crimes. They go about loose and free, working for the Publick: If they are Idle or backward to work, they are whipp'd; but if they work hard, they are well used and treated without any mark of Reproach, only the Lists of them are called always at Night, and then they are shut up, and they suffer no other uneasiness, but this of constant Labour; for as they work for the Publick, so they are well entertained out of the Publick Stock, which is done differently in different places: In some places, that which is bestowed on them, is raised by a charitable Contribution; and tho this way may seem uncertain, yet so merciful are the Inclinations of that People, that they are plentifully supplied by it; but in other places Publick Revenues are set aside for them; or there is a constant Tax of a Poll-mony raised for their Maintenance. In some places they are set to no Publick Work, but every privat Man that has occasion to hire Workmen, goes to the Market-places and hires them of the Publick, a little lower than he would do a Free-man: If they go lazily about their Task, he may quicken them with the Whip. By this means there is always some piece of Work or other to be done by them; and beside their Livelyhood, they earn somewhat still to the Publick. They wear all a peculiar Habit, of one certain colour, and their Hair is cropt a little above their Ears, and a little of one of their Ears is cut off. Their Friends are allowed to give them either Meat, Drink, or Clothes, so they are of their proper Colour; but it is Death, both to the Giver and Taker, if they give them Mony; nor is it less penal for any Free-man to take Mony from them, upon any account whatsoever: And it is also Death for any of these Slaves (so they are called) to handle Arms. Those of every Division of the Country, are distinguished by a peculiar Mark: And it is capital to lay that aside, and so it is also to go out of their Bounds, or to talk with a Slave of another Jurisdiction; and the very attempt of an escape, is no less penal than an escape it self; it is Death for any other Slave to be accessary to it: If a Free-man engages in it, he is condemned to slavery: Those that discover it are rewarded; if Free-men, in Mony; and if Slaves, with Liberty, together with a Pardon for being accessary to it; that so they may find their Account, rather in repenting of their accession to such a design, than in persisting in it.

These are their Laws and Rules in this Matter; in which both the Gentleness and the Advantages of them are very obvious; since by these Means, as Vices are destroyed, so Men are preserved; but are so treated, that they see the necessity of being good: and by the rest of their Life they make reparation for the Mischief they had formerly done. Nor is there any hazard of their falling back to their old Customs: And so little do Travellers apprehend Mischief from them, that they generally make use of them for Guides, from one Jurisdiction to another; for there is nothing left them by which they can rob, or be the better for it, since as they are disarmed, so the very having of Mony is a sufficient Conviction: and as they are certainly punished if discovered, so they cannot hope to escape: for their Habit being in all the parts of it different from what is commonly worn, they cannot fly away, unless they should go naked, and even then their crop'd Ear would betray them. The only danger to be feared from them, is their conspiring against the Government: but those of one Division and Neighbourhood can do nothing to any purpose, unless a general Conspiracy were laid amongst all the Slaves of the several Jurisdictions, which cannot be done, since they cannot meet or talk together; nor will any venture on a Design where the Concealment would be so dangerous, and the Discovery so profitable: and none of them is quite hopeless of recovering his Freedom, since by their Obedience and Patience, and by giving grounds to believe that they will change their manner of Life for the future, they may expect at last to obtain their Liberty: and some are every Year restored to it, upon the good Character that is given of them. When I had related all this, I added, That I did not see why such a Method might not be followed with more advantage, than could ever be expected from that severe Justice which the Counsellor magnified so much. To all this he answered, That it could never be so setled in England, without endangering the whole Nation by it; and as he said that, he shook his Head, and made some grimaces, and so held his peace; and all the Company seemed to be of his mind: only the Cardinal said, It is not easy to guess whether it would succeed well or ill, since no trial has been made of it: But if when the Sentence of Death were past upon a Thief, the Prince would reprieve him for a while, and make the Experiment upon him, denying him the privilege of a Sanctuary; then if it had a good effect upon him, it might take place; and if it succeeded not, the worst would be, to execute the Sentence on the condemned Persons at last. And I do not see, said he, why it would be either injust or inconvenient, or at all dangerous, to admit of such a delay: And I think the Vagabonds ought to be treated in the same manner, against whom tho we have made many Laws, yet we have not been able to gain our end by them all. When the Cardinal had said this, then they all fell to commend the Motion, tho they had despised it when it came from me; but they did more particularly commend that concerning the Vagabonds, because it had been added by him.

I do not know whether it be worth the while to tell what followed, for it was very ridiculous; but I shall venture at it, for as it is not forreign to this Matter, so some good use may be made of it. There was a Jester standing by, that counterfeited the Fool so naturally, that he seemed to be really one. The Jests at which he offered were so cold and dull, that we laughed more at him than at them; yet sometimes he said, as it were by chance, things that were not unpleasant; so as to justify the old Proverb, That he who throws the Dice often, will sometimes have a lucky Hit. When one of the Company had said, that I had taken care of the Thieves, and the Cardinal had taken care of the Vagabonds, so that there remained nothing but that some publick Provision might be made for the Poor, whom Sickness or Old Age had disabled from Labour: Leave that to me, said the Fool, and I shall take care of them; for there is no sort of People whose sight I abhor more, having been so often vexed with them, and with their sad Complaints; but as dolefully soeveras they have told their Tale to me, they could never prevail so far as to draw one Penny of Mony from me: for either I had no mind to give them any thing, or when I had a mind to it, I had nothing to give them: and they now know me so well, that they will not lose their labour on me, but let me pass without giving me any trouble, because they hope for nothing from me, no more in faith than if I were a Priest: But I would have a Law made, for sending all these Beggars to Monasteries, the Men to the Benedictines to be Lay-Brothers, and the Women to be Nuns. The Cardinal smiled, and approved of it in jest; but the rest liked it in earnest. There was a Divine present, who tho he was a grave morose Man, yet he was so pleased with this Reflection that was made on the Priests and the Monks, that he began to play with the Fool, and said to him, This will not deliver you from all Beggers, except you take care of us Friars. That is done already, answered the Fool, for the Cardinal has provided for you, by what he proposed for the restraining Vagabonds, and setting them to work, for I know no Vagabonds like you. This was well entertained by the whole Company, who looking at the Cardinal, perceived that he was not ill pleased at it; only the Friar himself was so bit, as may be easily imagined, and fell out into such a passion, that he could not forbear railing at the Fool, and called him Knave, Slanderer, Backbiter, and Son of Perdition, and cited some dreadful Threatnings out of the Scriptures against him. Now the Jester thought he was in his Element, and laid about him freely: he said, Good Friar be not angry, for it is written, In patience possess your Soul. The Friar answered, (for I shall give you his own words) I am not angry, you Hangman; at least I do not sin in it, for the Psalmist says, Be ye angry, and sin not. Upon this the Cardinal admonished him gently, and wished him to govern his Passions. No, my Lord, said he, I speak not but from a good Zeal, which I ought to have; for Holy Men have had a good Zeal, as it is said, The Zeal of thy House hath eaten me up; and we sing in our Church, that those who mock'd Elisha as he went up to the House of God, felt the Effects of his Zeal; which that Mocker, that Rogue, that Scoundrel, will perhaps feel. You do this perhaps with a goodintention, said the Cardinal; but in my Opinion, it were wiser in you, not to say better for you, not to engage in so ridiculous a Contest with a Fool. No, my Lord, answered he, that were not wisely done; for Solomon, the wisest of Men, said, Answer a Fool according to his folly; which I now do, and shew him the Ditch into which he will fall, if he is not aware of it; for if the many Mockers of Elisha, who was but one bald Man, felt the Effect of his Zeal, What will become of one Mocker of so many Friars, among whom there are so many bald Men? We have likewise a Bull, by which all that jeer us are excommunicated. When the Cardinal saw that there was no end of this Matter, he made a sign to the Fool to withdraw, and turned the Discourse another way; and soon after he rose from the Table, and dismissing us, he went to hear Causes.

Thus, Mr. More, I have run out into a tedious Story, of the length of which I had been ashamed, if, as you earnestly begged it of me, I had not observed you to hearken to it, as if you had no mind to lose any part of it: I might have contracted it, but I resolved to give it you at large, that you might observe how those that had despised what I had proposed, no sooner perceived that the Cardinal did not dislike it, but they presently approved of it, and fawned so on him, and flattered him to such a degree, that they in good earnest applauded those things that he only liked in jest. And from hence you may gather, how little Courtiers would value either me or my Counsels.

To this I answered, You have done me a great kindness in this Relation; for as every thing has been related by you, both wisely and pleasantly, so you have made me imagine, that I was in my own Country, and grown young again, by recalling that good Cardinal into my thoughts, in whose Family I was bred from my Childhood: And tho you are upon other accounts very dear to me, yet you are the dearer, because you honour his Memory so much: but after all this I cannot change my Opinion, for I still think that if you could overcome that aversion which you have to the Courts of Princes, you might do a great deal of good to Mankind, by the Advices that you would give; and this is the chief Design that every good Man ought to propose to himself in living: for whereas your Friend Plato thinks that then Nations will be happy, when either Philosophers become Kings, or Kings become Philosophers. No wonder if we are so far from that Happiness, if Philosophers will not think it fit for them to assist Kings with their Councels. They are not so base minded, said he, but that they would willingly do it: many of them have already done it by their Books, if these that are in Power would hearken to their good Advices. But Plato judged right, that except Kings themselves became Philosophers, it could never be brought about, that they who from their Childhood are corrupted with false Notions, should fall in intirely with the Counsels of Philosophers, which he himself found to be true in the Person of Dionysius.

Do not you think, that if I were about any King, and were proposing good Laws to him, and endeavouring to root out of him all the cursed Seeds of Evil that I found in him, I should either be turned out of his Court, or at least be laughed at for my pains? For Instance, What could I signify if I were about the King of France, and were called into his Cabinet-Council, where several wise Men do in his hearing propose many Expedients; as by what Arts and Practices Milan may be kept; and Naples, that has so oft slip'd out of their hands, recovered; and how the Venetians, and after them the rest of Italy may be subdued; and then how Flanders, Brabant, and all Burgundy, and some other Kingdoms which he has swallowed already in his Designs, may be added to his Empire. One proposes a League with the Venetians, to be kept as long as he finds his account in it, and that he ought to communicate Councils with them, and give them some share of the Spoil, till his Success makes him need or fear them less, and then it will be easily taken out of their Hands. Another proposes the hireing the Germans, and the securing the Switzers by Pensions. Another proposes the gaining the Emperor by Mony, which is Omnipotent with him. Another proposes a Peace with the King of Arragon, and in order to the cementing it, the yielding up the King of Navar's Pretensions. Another thinks the Prince of Castile is to be wrought on, by the hope of an Alliance; and that some of his Courtiers are to be gained to the French Faction by Pensions. The hardest Point of all is, what to do with England: a Treaty of Peace is to be set on foot, and if their Alliance is not to be depended on, yet it is to be made as firm as can be; and they are to be called Friends, but suspected as Enemies: Therefore the Scots are to be kept in readiness, to be let loose upon England on every occasion; and some banished Nobleman is to be supported underhand, (for by the League it cannot be done avowedly) who has a pretension to the Crown, by which means that suspected Prince may be kept in awe. Now when things are in so great a Fermentation, and so many gallant Men are joining Councils, how to carry on the War, if so mean a Man as I am should stand up, and wish them to change all their Councils, to let Italy alone, and stay at home, since the Kingdom of France was indeed greater than that it could be well governed by one Man; So that he ought not to think of adding others to it: And if after this, I should propose to them the Resolutions of the Achorians, a People that lie over against the Isle of Ʋtopia to the South-east, who having long ago engaged in a War, that they might gain another Kingdom to their King, who had a Pretension to it by an old Alliance, by which it had descended to him; and having conquered it, when they found that the trouble of keeping it, was equal to that of gaining it; for the conquered People would be still apt to rebel, or be exposed to Forreign Invasions, so that they must always be in War, either for them, or against them; and that therefore they could never disband their Army: That in the mean time Taxes lay heavy on them, that Mony went out of the Kingdom; that their Blood was sacrificed to their King's Glory, and that they were nothing the better by it, even in time of Peace; their Manners being corrupted by a long War; Robbing and Murders abounding every where, and their Laws falling under contempt, because their King being distracted with the Cares of the Kingdom, was less able to apply his Mind to any one of them; when they saw there would be no end of those Evils, they by joint Councils made an humble Address to their King, desiring him to chuse which of the two Kingdoms he had the greatest mind to keep, since he could not hold both; for they were too great a People to be governed by a divided King, since no Man would willingly have a Groom that should be in common between him and another. Upon which the good Prince was forced to quit his new Kingdom to one of his Friends, (who was not long after dethroned) and to be contented with his old One. To all this I would add, that after all those Warlike Attempts, and the vast Confusions, with the Consumptions both of Treasure and of People, that must follow them; perhaps upon some Misfortune, they might be forced to throw up all at last; therefore it seemed much more eligible that the King should improve his ancient Kingdom all he could, and make it flourish as much as was possible; that he should love his People, and be beloved of them; that he should live among them, and govern them gently; and that he should let other Kingdoms alone, since that which had fallen to his share was big enough, if not too big for him. Pray how do you think would such a Speech as this be heard? I confess, said I, I think not very well.

But what said he, if I should sort with another kind of Ministers, whose chief Contrivances and Consultations were, by what Art Treasure might be heaped up? Where one proposes, the crying up of Mony, when the King had a great Debt on him, and the crying it down as much when his Revenues were to come in, that so he might both pay much with a little, and in a little receive a great deal: Another proposes a pretence of a War, that so Money might be raised in order to the carrying it on, and that a Peace might be concluded as soon as that was done; and this was to be made up with such appearances of Religion as might work on the People, and make them impute it to the piety of their Prince, and to his tenderness of the Lives of his Subjects. A third offers some old musty Laws, that have been antiquated by a long disuse; and which, as they had been forgotten by all the Subjects, so they had been also broken by them; and that the levying of the Penalties of these Laws, as it would bring in a vast Treasure, so there might be a very good Pretence for it, since it would look like the executing of Law, and the doing of Justice. A fourth proposes the prohibiting of many things under severe Penalties, especially such things as were against the Interest of the People, and then the dispensing with these Prohibitions upon great Compositions, to those who might make Advantages by breaking them. This would serve two ends, both of them acceptable to many; for as those whose Avarice led them to transgress, would be severely fined; so the selling Licences dear, would look as if a Prince were tender of his People, and would not easily, or at low Rates, dispense with any thing that might be against the Publick Good. Another proposes, that the Judges must be made sure, that they may declare always in favor of the Prerogative, that they must be often sent for to Court, that the King may hear them argue those Points in which he is concerned; since that how unjust soever any of his Pretensions may be, yet still some one or other of them, either out of contradiction to others, or the pride of singularity, or that they may make their Court, would find out some Pretence or other to give the King a fair colour to carry the Point: For if the Judges but differ in Opinion, the clearest thing in the World is made by that means disputable, and Truth being once brought in question, the King upon that may take advantage to expound the Law for his own profit: the Judges that stand out will be brought over, either out of fear or modesty; and they being thus gained, all of them may be sent to the Bench to give Sentence boldly, as the King would have it: for fair Pretences will never be wanting when Sentence is to be given in the Prince's Favor: it will either be said, that Equity lies of his side, or some words in the Law will be found sounding that way, or some forced sence will be put on them; and when all other things fail, the King's undoubted Prerogative will be pretended, as that which is above all Law; and to which a Religious Judg ought to have a special regard. Thus all consent to that Maxim of Grassus, That a Prince cannot have Treasure enough, since he must maintain his Armies out of it: that a King, even tho he would, can do nothing unjustly; that all Property is in him, not excepting the very Persons of his Subjects: And that no Man has any other Property, but that which the King out of his goodness thinks fit to leave him: and they think it is the Prince's Interest, that there be as little of this left as may be, as if it were his advantage that his People should have neither Riches nor Liberty; since these things make them less easy and tame to a cruel and injust Government; whereas Necessity and Poverty blunts them, makes them patient, and bears them down, and breaks that height of Spirit, that might otherwise dispose them to rebel. Now what if after all these Propositions were made, I should rise up and assert, That such Councels were both unbecoming a King, and mischievous to him: and that not only his Honor but his Safety consisted more in his Peoples Wealth, than in his own; if I should shew, that they choose a King for their own sake, and not for his; that by his care and endeavors they may be both easy and safe: and that therefore a Prince ought to take more care of his Peoples Happiness, than of his own, as a Shepherd is to take more care of his Flock than of himself. It is also certain, that they are much mistaken, that think the Poverty of a Nation is a means of the Publick Safety: Who quarrel more than Beggers do? who does more earnestly long for a change, than he that is uneasy in his present Circumstances? and who run in to create Confusions with so desperate a boldness, as those who having nothing to lose, hope to gain by them? If a King should fall under so much contempt or envy, that he could not keep his Subjects in their Duty, but by Oppression and ill Usage, and by impoverishing them, it were certainly better for him to quit his Kingdom, than to retain it by such Methods, by which tho he keeps the Name of Authority, yet he loses the Majesty due to it. Nor is it so becoming the Dignity of a King to reign over Beggars, as to reign over rich and happy Subjects. And therefore Fabritius, that was a Man of a noble and exalted Temper, said, He would rather govern rich Men, than be rich himself; and for one Man to abound in Wealth and Pleasure, when all about him are mourning and groaning, is to be a Goaler and not a King. He is an unskilful Physician, that cannot cure a Disease, but by casting his Patient into another: So he that can find no other way for correcting the Errors of his People, but by taking from them the Conveniences of Life, shews that he knows not what it is to govern a free Nation. He himself ought rather to shake off his Sloth, or to lay down his Pride; for the Contempt or Hatred that his People have for him, takes its rise from the Vices in himself. Let him live upon what belongs to himself, without wronging others, and accommodate his Expence to his Revenue. Let him punish Crimes, and by his wise Conduct let him endeavour to prevent them, rather than be severe when he has suffered them to be too common: Let him not rashly revive Laws that are abbrogated by disuse, especially if they have been long forgotten, and never wanted. And let him never take any Penalty for the breach of them, to which a Judg would not give way in a private Man, but would look on him as a crafty and unjust Person for pretending to it. To these things I would add, that Law among the Macarians, that lie not far from Ʋtopia, by which their King, in the day on which he begins to reign, is tied by an Oath confirmed by solemn Sacrifices, never to have at once above a thousand Pounds of Gold in his Treasures, or so much Silver as is equal to that in value. This Law, as they say, was made by an excellent King, who had more regard to the Riches of his Country, than to his own Wealth; and so provided against the heaping up of so much Treasure, as might impoverish the People: he thought that moderate Sum might be sufficient for any Accident; if either the King had occasion for it against Rebels, or the Kingdom against the Invasion of an Enemy, but that it was not enough to encourage a Prince to invade other Mens Rights, which was the chief cause of his making that Law. He also thought, that it was a good Provision for a free circulation of Mony, that is necessary for the course of Commerce and Exchange: And when a King must distribute all these extraordinary Accessions that encrease Treasure beyond the due pitch, it makes him less disposed to oppress his Subjects. Such a King as this is, will be the terror of ill Men, and will be beloved of all good Men.

If, I say, I should talk of these or such like things, to Men that had taken their biass another way, how deaf would they be to it all? No doubt, very deaf, answered I; and no wonder, for one is never to offer at Propositions or Advices, that he is certain will not be entertained. Discourses so much out of the road could not avail any thing, nor have any effect on Men, whose Minds were prepossessed with different Sentiments. This Philosophical way of Speculation, is not unpleasant among Friends in a free Converrsation; but there is no room for it in the Courts of Princes, where great Affairs are carried on by Authority. That is what I was saying, replied he, that there is no room for Philosophy in the Courts of Princes. Yes, there is, said I, but not for this Speculative Philosophy, that makes every thing to be alike fitting at all times: But there is another Philosophy that is more pliable, that knows its proper Scene, and accommodates it self to it; and that teaches a Man to act that part which has fallen to his share, fitly and decently. If when one of Plautus's Comedies is upon the Stage, and a Company of Servants are acting their parts, you should come out in the Garb of a Philosopher, and repeat out of Octavia, a Discourse of Seneca's to Nero, had it not been better for you to have said nothing, than by mixing things of such different Natures, to have made such an impertinent Tragi-Comedy? for you spoil and corrupt the Play that is in hand, when you mix with it things disagreeing to it, even tho they were better than it is: therefore go through with the Play that is acting, the best you can; and do not confound it, because another that is pleasanter comes into your thoughts. It is even so in a Common-Wealth, and in the Councils of Princes; if ill Opinions cannot be quite rooted out; and if you cannot cure some received Vices according to your wishes, you must not therefore abandon the Common-Wealth; or forsake the Ship in a Storm, because you cannot command the Winds; nor ought you to assault People with Discourses that are out of their Road, when you see their Notions are such that you can make no impression on them: but you ought to cast about, and as far as you can to manage things dextrously, that so if you cannot make Matters go well, they may be as little ill as is possible; for except all Men were good, all things cannot go well; which I do not hope to see in a great while. By this, answered he, all that I shall do shall be to preserve my self from being mad, while I endeavour to cure the madness of other People: for if I will speak truth, I must say such things as I was formerly saying; and for lying, whether a Philosopher can do it or not, I cannot tell; I am sure I cannot do it. But tho these Discourses may be uneasy and ungrateful to them, I do not see why they should seem foolish or extravagant: indeed if I should either propose such things as Plato has contrived in his Common-Wealth, or as the Ʋtopians practise in theirs, tho they might seem better, as certainly they are, yet they are so quite different from our Establishment, which is founded on Property, there being no such thing among them, that I could not expect that it should have any effect on them: But such Discourses as mine, that only call past Evils to mind, and give warning of what may follow, have nothing in them that is so absurd, that they may not be used at any time; for they can only be unpleasant to those who are resolved to run headlong the contrary way: and if we must let alone every thing as absurd or extravagant, which by reason of the wicked Lives of many may seem uncouth, we must, even among Christians, give over pressing the greatest part of those things that Christ hath taught us: tho he has commanded us not to conceal them, but to proclaim on the House-tops that which he taught in secret. The greatest parts of his Precepts are more disagreeing to the Lives of the Men of this Age, than any part of my Discourse has been: But the Preachers seem to have learn'd that craft to which you advise me; for they observing that the World would not willingly sute their Lives to the Rules that Christ has given, have fitted his Doctrine, as if it had been a leaden Rule, to their Lives; that so some way or other they might agree with one another. But I see no other effect of this compliance, except it be that Men become more secure in their wickedness by it. And this is all the success that I can have in a Court; for I must always differ from the rest, and then I will signify nothing; or if I agree with them, then I will only help forward their madness. I do not comprehend what you mean by your casting about, or by the bending and handling things so dextrously, that if they go not well, they may go as little ill as may be: for in Courts they will not bear with a Man's holding his peace, or conniving at them: a Man must bare-facedly approve of the worst Councils, and consent to the blackest Designs: So that one would pass for a Spy, or possibly for a Traitor, that did but coldly approve of such wicked Practices: And when a Man is engaged in such a Society, he will be so far from being able to mend Matters by his casting about, as you call it, that he will find no occasions of doing any good: the ill Company will sooner corrupt him, than be the better for him: or if notwithstanding all their ill Company, he remains still entire and innocent, yet their Follies and Knavery will be imputed to him; and by mixing Councils with them, he must bear his share of all the blame that belongs wholly to others.

It was no ill Simily, by which Plato set forth the unreasonableness of a Philosopher's medling with Government: If one, says he, shall see a great company run out into the Rain every day, and delight to be wet in it; and if he knows that it will be to no purpose for him to go and perswade them to come into their Houses, and avoid the Rain; so that all that can be expected from his going to speak to them, will be, that he shall be wet with them; when it is so, he does best to keep within Doors, and preserve himself, since he cannot prevail enough to correct other Peoples Folly.

Tho to speak plainly what is my Heart, I must freely own to you, that as long as there is any Property, and while Mony is the Standard of all other things, I cannot think that a Nation can be governed either Justly or Happily: Not Justly, because the best things will fall to the share of the worst of Men: Nor Happily, because all things will be divided among a few, (and even these are not in all respects happy) the rest being left to be absolutely miserable. Therefore when I reflect on the wise and good Constitutions of the Ʋtopians, among whom all things are so well governed, and with so few Laws; and among whom as Vertue hath its due reward, yet there is such an equality, that every Man lives in plenty; and when I compare with them so many other Nations that are still making new Laws, and yet can never bring their Constitution to a right Regulation, among whom tho every one has his Property; yet all the Laws that they can invent, cannot prevail so far, that Men can either obtain or preserve it, or be certainly able to distinguish what is their own, from what is another Man's; of which the many Law Suits that every day break out, and depend without any end, give too plain a demonstration: When, I say, I ballance all these things in my thoughts, I grow more favourable to Plato, and do not wonder that he resolved, not to make any Laws for such as would not submit to a community of all things: For so wise a Man as he was, could not but foresee that the setting all upon the Level, was the only way to make a Nation happy; which cannot be obtained so long as there is Property: for when every Man draws to himself all that he can compass, by one Title or another, it must needs follow, that how plentiful soever a Nation may be, yet a few dividing the Wealth of it among themselves, the rest must fall under Poverty. So that there will be two sorts of People among them, that deserve that their Fortunes should be interchanged; the former being useless, but wicked and ravenous; and the latter, who by their constant industry serve the Publick more than themselves, being sincere and modest Men. From whence I am perswaded, that till Property is taken away, there can be no equitable or just distribution made of things, nor can the World be happily governed: for as long as that is maintained, the greatest and the far best part of Mankind, will be still oppressed with a load of Cares and Anxieties. I confess, without the taking of it quite away, those Pressures that lie on a great part of Mankind, may be made lighter; but they can never be quite removed. For if Laws were made, determining at how great an extent in Soil, and at how much Mony every Man must stop, and limiting the Prince that he may not grow too great, and restraining the People that they may not become too insolent, and that none might factiously aspire to publick Employments; and that they might neither be sold, nor made burdensome by a great expence; since otherwise those that serve in them, will be tempted to reimburse themselves by Cheats and Violence, and it will become necessary to find out rich Men for undergoing those Employments for which wise Men ought rather to be sought out; these Laws, I say, may have such Effects, as good Diet and Care may have on a Sick Man, whose recovery is desperate: they may allay and mitigate the Disease, but it can never be quite healed, nor the Body Politick be brought again to a good Habit, as long as Property remains; and it will fall out as in a complication of Diseases, that by applying a Remedy to one Sore, you will provoke another; and that which removes one ill Symptom, produces others, while the strengthning of one part of the Body weakens the rest. On the contrary, answered I, it seems to me that Men cannot live conveniently, where all things are common: How can there be any Plenty, where every Man will excuse himself from Labour? For as the hope of Gain doth not excite him, so the confidence that he has in other Mens Industry, may make him slothful: And if People come to be pinched with Want, and yet cannot dispose of any thing as their own; what can follow upon this, but perpetual Sedition and Bloodshed, especially when the Reverence and Authority due to Magistrates falls to the Ground? For I cannot imagine how that can be kept up among those that are in all things equal to one another. I do not wonder, said he, that it appears so to you, since you have no Notion, or at least no right one, of such a Constitution: But if you had been in Ʋtopia with me, and had seen their Laws and Rules as I did, for the space of five Years, in which I lived among them; and during which time I was so delighted with them, that indeed I would never have left them, if it had not been to make the discovery of that new World to the Europeans; you would then confess that you had never seen a People so well constituted as they are. You will not easily perswade me, said Peter, that any Nation in that New World, is better governed than those among us are. For as our Understandings are not worse than theirs, so our Government, if I mistake not, being ancienter, a long practice has helped us to find out many Conveniences of Life: And some happy Chances have discovered other things to us, which no Man's Understanding could ever have invented. As for the Antiquity, either of their Government, or of ours, said he, you cannot pass a true Judgment of it, unless you had read their Histories; for if they are to be believed, they had Towns among them, before these parts were so much as inhabited: And as for these Discoveries, that have been either hit on by chance, or made by ingenious Men, these might have hapned there as well as here. I do not deny but we are more ingenious than they are, but they exceed us much in Industry and Application: They knew little concerning us, before our arrival among them; they call us all by a general Name of the Nations that lie beyond the Equinoctial Line; for their Chronicle mentions a Shipwrack that was made on their Coast 1200 Years ago; and that some Romans and Egyptians that were in the Ship, getting safe a Shore, spent the rest of their days amongst them; and such was their Ingenuity, that from this single Opportunity, they drew the advantage of Learning from those unlook'd for Guests, all the useful Arts that were then among the Romans, which those Shipwrack'd Men knew: And by the Hints that they gave them, they themselves found out even some of those Arts which they could not fully explain to them; so happily did they improve that Accident, of having some of our People cast upon their shore: But if any such Accident have at any time brought any from thence into Europe, we have been so far from improving it, that we do not so much as remember it; as in after Times perhaps it will be forgot by our People that I was ever there. For tho they from one such Accident, made themselves Masters of all the good Inventions that were among us; yet I believe it would be long before we would learn or put in practice any of the good Institutions that are among them: And this is the true Cause of their being better governed, and living happier than we do, tho we come not short of them in point of Understanding, or outward Advantages. Upon this I said to him, I do earnestly beg of you, that you would describe that Island very particularly to us. Be not too short in it, but set out in order all things relating to their Soil, their Rivers, their Towns, their People, their Manners, Constitution, Laws, and in a word, all that you imagine we desire to know: and you may well imagine that we desire to know every thing concerning them, of which we are hitherto ignorant. I will do it very willingly, said he, for I have digested the whole Matter carefully; but it will take up some time. Let us go then, said I, first and dine, and then we shall have leasure enough. Be it so, said he. So we went in and dined, and after Dinner we came back, and sat down in the same place. I ordered my Servants to take care that none might come and interrupt us: and both Peter and I desired Raphael to be as good as his word: So when he saw that we were very intent upon it, he paused a little to recollect himself, and began in this manner.