Agaynste Tyndales vsynge this worde senior and elder, and not preste

Tyndale

ANother thynge whych he re[…]eth is, that I interprete this greke worde presbyteros by this word se[…]io[…]. Of a treuth seniour is no very good englyshe, though seniour and iunior be vsed in the vniuersyties: but there came no better in my mynde at that tyme. How be it I spyed my faute s[…]s, longe yere M. More told it me, and haue mended it in all the workes whyche I seus made, and call yt an elder.

Tyndale in thys chapyter at great length declareth f[…]r his excuse, four fayre vertues in hym self / malice, ignor[…] errour, and foly. For in hys longe babelynge he hath neuer a clause but it falleth in one of these foure, and some one in all foure as ye shall se ferther in hys wordes folowynge.

Here in the begynnynge leste he sholde seme to haue lerned the knowledge of his ignoraunce by my monycyon: he sayth yt he perceyued hys faute hym selfe byfore & amended it to. For where as for lakke of fyndynge a better englysshe worde he sayth that he had translated thys worde presbiteros in to thys worde senyours in englysshe: he hath now amended it and made it elders.

Here hath he done a grete acte, now that he hath at laste founde out elder. He hath of lykelyhed ryden many myle to fynde out that. For that worde elder is ye wote well so straū ge and so lytell knowen, that it is more then meruayle how that euer he coude fynde it out. And one thynge I promyse you yf it were not worse then senior / he hadde not founde it yet. For thys is a lyke amendynge, as yf he wolde where a man were blynde of the tone eye / amende hys syghte by puttynge out the tother.

Thys word presbiter in the greke, as it sygnifyeth yt thyng that men call a preste in englysshe / was called somtyme senior in latyn. But thys thynge that englysshe men call a preste, and that the greke chyrche called presbiter, and the latyn chyrche also and somtyme seni[…]r: was neuer called elder neyther in the greke chyrch, nor the latyn, nor the englysshe neyther. Now thys beyng thus / iudge good readers your selfe whyther of two bad, it was not better when he called a preste a senior, by whyche worde it was called somtyme at the leste wyse in some langage / then when he calleth a prest an elder, by whyche worde it was neuer called nor knowen neyther in one langage nor other. And so ye maye se how wysely by longe leysure and warnynge to, Tyndale hath amended hys mater.

Tyndale

And in that he maketh heresye of it, to call presbiteros an elder: he condemneth theyr owne olde latyn texte of heresye also, whiche they vse yet dayly in the chyrche and haue vsed I suppose this.xiiij. hundred yeres. For that texte d[…]th call it an elder lyke wyse.

Se the synceryte and playnnesse of the good man. It is no mayst[…]y for hym to make proper solucyons, yf hym selfe maye make the obieccyons, suche as no man obiecteth nor wolde obiecte agaynst hym but hym selfe. For here he sayth that I make it heresie to call presbyteros an elder, whych thyng I neuer sayed nor thought. But I sayed & saye and trewth I saye, that Tyndale dyd in his englysh trāslacyon chaūge the word of preste in to senior of an heretycall mynde and entent to set forth his heresye / wherby he techeth that presthe[…] is no sacrament.

For as for this worde elder, how coulde I then charge hym wyth yt as an heresye / when he had not then translated elder but senior, tyll now that he hath by lenger laysour amendyd yt and made yt worse. So that ye may fyrste here se a pece of his playne poetrye double proued and double reproued / by whyche he layeth vnto me the thynge that I neuer sayed nor had at that tyme eyther cause to saye or occasyon to thynke vppon.

Nor nowe I saye not that yt is heresye, yf he haue as he saith translated synnes that tyme presbyteros by this worde elder: but I say he doth it with the mynde of an heretyque to set forth his heresye. For ellys I wolde not call it heresye, yf one wolde trāslate presbyteros a blok: but I wold say he were a blok hed. And as very a blokhed were he, that wold translate presbyteros an elder in stede of a preste, for that this english worde elder sygnyfyeth no more a preste, then this greke worde presbyteros sygnyfyeth an elder stykke.

And yet this thynge beynge so properly spoken as ye se: he sayth that the olde translacyon in latyne redde in the chyrch this.xiiii. hūdred yere, calleth presbyteros an elder in lyke wyse. whych worde of Tyndale I wolde call a lye / sauynge yt yt is more then a lye by a syllable.

Tyndale

In the.v. chapyter of the fyrste of Peter, thus standeth yt in the latine text: Seniores qui in vobis sunt, obsecro ego consenior, pasc[…]te qui in vobis est gre[…] Cristi. The elders that are amonge you / I beseche whyche a[…] elder also, that ye fede the flocke of Criste whych is amonge you. There is presbyteros called an elder.

Herd ye reder euer such a nother? Is presbyteros here called an elder in ye olde latine trāslacyō? I fynde there this word seniores, where the greke chyrch vsed in theyr langage presbyteros. But as for this word elde[…] which Tindale sayth is ye old latyne translacyō: he were lyke to pore out his eyen vpp[…] latyne boke ere he fynde y• englyshe word elder th[…], […] he cause yt to be wryten in hym selfe. And yet he layeth lyke textes.iii. or foure / some in ye pystles of saynt Iohn̄, & some in the Actes, where he fyndeth in stede of presbyteros this word seniores and natu maiores/and alwaye he setteth thereto, lo here is presbyteros called an elder and an elder in byrth, as though this latine word seniores or natu maiores were this englysh word elder / where he sayth that presbyteros is called elder in the olde trāslacyon / whych as ye se muste nedes be false: but yf this englyshe worde be in that latine boke, and that he make englyshe latine and latine englyshe.

But now leste he call the redargucyon of his foly sophystycacyon / lette vs diuine for hym what he myght meane. He wyll happely say, that he meaneth yt this greke word pr[…]s[…]yteros is in the texte that he hath alleged called by the olde translatour seniores, and seniores sygnyfyeth elder or elders. And so though this worde elder be not in the latine trāslacyon, yet syth that latine worde is there that sygnyfyeth in laten the same thynge that this worde elder sygnyfyeth in englyshe: we can not blame hym for translatynge presbyteros in to thys worde elder / but yf we blame in lyke wyse the translatour, for translatynge presbyteros in to this worde seniores.

Fyrste yf I sayed that the olde translacyon were in that poynt not so well as yt myght haue ben / I sholde not saye so alone. And Erasmꝰ whom Tyndale calleth my derlyng, and whom hym selfe doth for all that in his own trās[…]acyon preferre byfore the olde / doth as well in the sayed pystle of saynt Peter, as in the sayd.xx. chapiter of thapostles Actes, not onely kepe styll the greke worde presbyteros, but sheweth also that the old translatour translated it not well, bycause he translated there thys worde presbyteros into thys worde s[…] niores, and in the tother place into maiores natu/but sayth that he shold rather haue kepte styll the worde presbyteros vnchaunged, bycause that worde is yt yt sygnyfyeth authoryte wyth the grekes / where seniore[…] in latine sygnyfyeth but theyr age, and all were not olde as appered by Timothe. And for that cause in the sayed place of saynte Peter his pystle / saynt Hierome amendeth that olde translacyon and kepeth presbyteros styll, recitynge saynte Peter in this wyse: Presbyteros qui sunt […]n vobis obsecro ego compresbyter. wherein saynt Hierome was rather cont[…] to ioyne the latine cōiunccyon with the greke word, and […]all y[…] compresbyter/then to chaunge that worde sygnyfyenge the […] in to seni[…]res and consen[…]or, sygnifyeng but ye age. For amonge the latines senior sygnyfyed none other / but amonge the grekes presbyteri was the name that many tymes sygnyfyed rulers and gouernours.

Now yf we lyste we may yet excuse the olde translatour / whych how sone after Crystes deth he translated it who can tell? And then when the latine chyrche had no laten worde for the crysten prestes all redy receyued & vsed / what blame was he worthy that toke that worde not contynually but amonge, whyche of all the latine wordes semed to hym to go nexte the sygnifycacyon of presbyteros at that tyme. And yt was as hym thought seniores, in whych word yet the chyrch neuer folowed hym though / but though they redde his trāslacion openly in diuine seruyce, yet neyther in theyr wrytynge nor preachynge wold they take vp that worde and call a preest seniour / as appereth by the bokes and sermons of all holy doctours synnys.

And therfore Tyndale is wythoute excuse, whyche hath translated presbyteros by this englyshe worde elders / a worde vnknowen amonge englyshe men to sygnyfye prestes / and amonge whom this word preste was ye proper englesh word well knowen, and had serued in that sygnifycacyon so many hundred yere afore Tyndale was borne.

Also go me to the place whych Tyndale alledgeth in the fyrste pystle of saynt Petre: Seniores qui sunt in vobis obsecro ego consenior pascite qui in vobis est grezem Christi. whych place I take for ensample. For where he layeth two places of the pystles of saynt Iohn̄, and one in the.xx. of the Actes / all be for one purpose, and this one place answerd, answereth them all: I saye therfore that Tyndale hath euen here in this his newe boke translated that same place wronge, and all the remanaunt in lyke wyse. And that wyll I proue partely by Tyndales owne wordes, whych in this boke folowe the translacyon of those wordes.

The elders that are amonge you, I beche whych am an elder also, that ye […]ede the flocke of Cryste whych is amonge you. There is presbyteros calle[…] an elder And in that he sayth fede Cristes flocke / he meaneth euen the ministers that were chosen to teache the people and to enforme them in godd[…] worde and […] saye persones.

Lo Tyndale here shewed hym selfe that by this worde se[…]niores, be there vnderstanden the minysters that were ch[…] to teache peple. Then say I that yf this word seniores […] in that sygnyfycacyon there / Tyndale sholde not translate yt in to this englysh worde elder, whych sygnifyeth not the offyce but the age here. And this is I say trew / all were it so that Tyndales false heresy were trew, that holy orders were no sacrament at all / but a bare offyce. For yf yt were, but in a prophane comen storye, in whych men maye boldely be in the translacyon at myche more lybertye then in holy scrypture. yet were he a noughtye trans[…]atour that wolde translate a thynge in to suche a worde, as in the tonge in to whyche he translateth, is not vnderstanden in that sygnyfycacyon.

As yf percase a man wolde translate a latine cronycle in to englyshe, in whyche were mencyon made of some thynge done in London / yf he founde in that cronycle the aldermen called by the name of senatores, or peraduēture seniores: he shold yet in his englyshe translacyon call them not senatours nor elders neyther, syth neyther of those two wordes is in englyshe the name by whych the aldermen of London be knowen / but he muste therfore translate senatores and seniores also in to aldermen in his englyshe translacyon. And ferther yf he there founde this worde senatus Londinensis: he shold not trāsite yt in to this worde senate / but eyther into mayre and aldern[…]en, or percase (yf the circūstaunce of the mater so lede hym to yt) in to mayre, aldermen, and comen counsayle.

And therfore as ye playnely se / Tyndales defence of his translatynge presbyteros in to elders is as feble to stykke to, as is an olde roten elder stykke, & though yt were but in a prophane storye.

Now where yt is in the holy storye of Crystes gospell: what manner a thyng is it to trāslate elder in stede of prest, whych worde elder in engleshe was neuer so taken nor vnderstanden / and thus to do wythout necessyte, hauyng this worde preste so comenly knowen and so longe.

[…] d[…]th he not by the same re[…]on chaunge bysshoppe in to ouerseer, & de[…]k[…] in to seruer[…] both whych he myght […] […]all do as preste in to elder. And then muste he wyth his tr[…] ̄ […]l[…]yon make vs an englysh vocabularye of his owne deuyse […]. And so wyth such prouisyon he maye chaūg chynne into […] b[…]l[…]e in to bakke, & euery worde into other […], yf all Englande lyste now to go to […], and ellys not.

Now yf h[…] […] that wyth suche chaūges he coude chaunge the names in to the better and shewe vs what the names sygnyfye / fyrste yf he sayed therein trew, he may tell vs those sygnyfycacyons in a tale bysyde / but he muste in englysshe let englysshe wordes stande in hys englysshe trāslacyon for all that. And yet were out of hys mouthe a ryght good tale euyll worth the herynge / for wyth a lytell hony he mengleth so mych poyson: that rather then to swalowe the tone downe wyth the tother / a man were yet mych better to forbere them bothe. yet setteth me Tyndale one myghty stronge bulwarke to fence in all hys felde, out of whyche he shoteth a sore shot of serpentyns / when he asketh me why the apostles vsed not this greke worde hiereus, or the interpreter this latyne worde sacerdos, but alwaye these wordes presbyteros and senior / by whiche was at that tyme nothynge sygnyfyed other then an elder.

Thys shotte shall I not now mych nede to fere. For lykewyse as from ye shotte of a gonne a man were metely saufe, that had ere the gonne were losed, made a steppe asyde.xv. hundred myle from it: so syth I am stepped now fyftene hundred yere from the apostles dayes, and almost as many from the interpretours tyme, of whose ententes and purposes Tyndale asketh me now the why / I maye saye that I neuer talked so mych with them by mo[…]th, as to aske them the why / and therfore syth they haue not wryten me ye why, I am not bounde to tell Tyndale the why.

But I aske of Tyndale no suche farre fet whyes, but a why of hys owne dede. And that syth we now haue, and hundredes of yeres haue had englysshe names inough for such orders of offyces as he translated out of latyn: I aske hym thys why / why dyd he translate the same by thys englysshe worde elder, whyche nothynge sygnyfyeth the same. And syth that in the tex[…]ys that hymselfe alledgeth, […]yth[…] the greke worde presby[…]er[…] nor the latyne worde seniores sygny[…]yeth in those places by Tyndales owne confessyon the age […]ut ye offyce: why gyueth he than that englysshe wo[…]e[…] elder in theyr stede, whyche sygnyfyeth not the offy[…] […] age. For though Tyndale say […]hat […] was at that tyme nothynge […], wherin as to […]chynge […] syth hym selfe sayth n[…] […] (and in that […] it happ[…]th hym to saye […] dede yt b[…]the pres[…]yt[…]ros & […] be in those places […] […]y[…] the […] […] no[…] the age (forels had yonge […] […]ppon the callynge togyther of presbyteros or seniores, ben lefte vncalled and had leue to byde at home) what so euer moued in the fyrste gyuynge of the name the apostles or the interpreter to call the offyce by the name of presbyteros in greke, or seniores in latyne / it was Tyndales parte yet in hys englysshe translacyon to gyue it that englysshe name, by whyche the offyce (were it holy or prophane) was and longe had ben comenly knowen in englande.

And ferther yf no specyall name wolde haue contented hym: yet sholde he then haue called presbyteros the rewlers, gouernours, or offycers, or some suche other englysshe worde whyche sygnyfyeth offyce, rather then to call it elders / by whyche name there is in the englysshe tonge none offyce vnderstanden at all but onely the bare age.

And thus as touchyng chaūge of presbyteros in to seniores, and hys amendement in to elders, that is to wyt from euyll to wurse: ye se how well he hath quyt hym.

How be it yf he had had in the chaunge none other fawte but foly / it sholde haue ben longe ere I wolde haue gone about to fynde it. But now standeth all ye mater in this whyche he slyppeth ouer / that he dyd it of very cākered malyce, by whyche he setteth forth agaynste Cryste and hys chyrche hys dedely malycyouse heresye / wherewyth he wolde make men wene that holy orders were no sacrament. And for that cause he asketh why that the apostles dyd not call ye prestes hiereus in greke but presbyteros, whyche sygnyfyed he sayth nothyng but onely elders. And by this reason wolde Tyndale haue it seme, that the apostles dyd take the crysten prestes for no more consecrate persons then other crysten men, bycause they vsed a worde that had none holy sygnyfycacyon.

But Tyndale here though he wynke faste / is not yet so faste a slepe as he maketh for. For yf he lysted to lyfte vp his hed and loke vp a lytell […]he sholde sone se that hys argumēt were assoyled wyth the tother worde, whyche he hath also […]ysse translated of lyke malyce ecclesia.

For yf he wyll nedys argue that prestes be no persons cōsecrated, nor theyr order no sacrament, bycause ye apostles called them presbyteri/whyche name had at that tyme none h[…]y syg[…]ycacyon in the greke tonge where they toke it: […] Tyndale well inough (sauynge that he wynketh and wy[…]) that it must nedys folowe, that baptysme were no sac[…]am[…] neyther, bycause the apostles and euangelystes called it baptisma, and in holy scrypture also named ye holy company of baptysed people by this greke word ecclesia/of whyche two wordes baptisma and ecclesia neyther nother had in the greke tonge before, any holy sygnysyfacyon at all, nor sygnifyed there any other thyng thē ye tone a wesshyng / the tother a congregacyone or assemble of hethen paynem people. And thus is in thys poynte Tyndales playne foly and dissymuled falsed, well and playnely conuycted.

And now syth that the apostles and euangelystes dyd apply and approper that prophane worde ecclesia, to sygnyfy ye holy company of crysten people sacred and sanctifyed in the holy sacrament of baptysme / and in lykewyse the prophane worde presbyteros to sygnyfye a certayne sorte of the same cō panye, specyally consecrate vnto god by the holy sacrament of order: he that now translateth those wordes in those places in to the englysshe tonge by any other wordes then such as in the englysshe tonge do sygnyfye those holy consecrate companyes, the tone segregate from paynyms by the sacrament of baptysme, the tother segregate fro the laye people by the sacrament of order / as Tyndale hath done bothe in the holy name of chyrche and prestes, callynge the tone but congregacyon, the tother fyrst but senyor & now that worse is but elder / yf he know it for no faute, then is it grete ignoraūce / yf he forgete to marke it, then is it grete neglygence / yf he perceyue it and dyssymule it, then is it grete falshed / yf he do it as Tyndale doeth, to make presthed seme none holy sacrament, then is it a very malycyouse pestylente heresye / lyke as yf he wolde in lyke maner and of lyke entent translate baptisma in to wasshynge, to make men wene it were no nother maner wasshyng when the preste crysteneth a chyld, then when a woman was[…]heth a […]ke of clothes.

He planteth in a grete processe to small purpose / bycause I sayd yt Tymothe was not olde. And then Tyndale sayth that saynt Paule chose hym bycause he found in hym more wysdome, sadnes, and vertue, then in the aged t[…]en of that place. And Tyndale doeth well to tell vs so for […]llys wolde all ye world haue went that saynt Paule h[…] made a yonge man bysshoppe, bycau[…] […]e wolde haue had hym wylde.

But the goth he forth and […] […]s a solemne processe, that god and necessyte is law[…]e / and all this he bryng[…] in to proue that not onely yonge men but women also […] for necessyte mynyster all the sacramentes / and that […] may crysten for necessyte, so they may for necessyte preache, and for necessyte consecrate also the blessed bodye of Cryste. And for to make this mater lykely: he is fayne to ymagyne an vnlykely case / that a woman were dreuen alone in to an Ilande where Cryste was neuer preached, as though thynges that we call chaunce and happe, happed to come so to passe wythout any prouydence of god. Tyndale may make hym selfe sure, that syth there falleth not a sparow vppon ye ground wythout our father that is in heuen:¹ there shall no woman fall a lande in any so farre an Ilande, where he will haue his name preached and his sacramentes mynystred / but that god can and wyll well inough prouyde a man or twayne to come to lande wyth her, wherof we haue had all redy metely good experyence and that wyth in few yeres. For I am sure there haue ben mo Ilandes and more parte of the ferme lande and contynent, dyscouered and founden out wythin this fourty yeres laste passed / then was new foū den, as farre as any mā may ꝑceyue this thre thousand yere afore / and in many of these places the name of Cryste now new knowen to and preachynges had, and sacramētes mynystred, wythout any woman fallen a lande alone. But god hath prouyded that his name is preached by such good crysten folke as Tyndale now moste rayleth vppon / yt is good relygyous freres & specyally ye freres obseruaūtes, honeste, godly, chast[…], vertuose people / not by such as frere Luther is that is rūne out of religyon, nor by castyng a lande alone any suche holy nonne as his harlot is.

when Tyndale hath proued by this vnprobable case, that women maye consecrate the bodye of Cryste: thē he lamenteth the myserable seruytude of the symple soules the pore sely women[…] by cause men wyll not suffer them to say masse, and […]yeth out vppon vs: o pore women.

How dyspyse ye them. The vyser the better welcome to you. Better is to you […]o[…]d then a good woman.

O the tender herte of py[…]uouse Tyndale. He begynneth now by lykelyhed to loke towarde weddyng he speketh lyke a […]e[…]. But he wyll I warraunt you no vyle person. But byca[…]e he is a prest and hath promysed perpetually to lyue chaste / h[…] […]yll none whore therfore, but rather wyll do as Luther […] done, wedde a […]onne and make here an whore

Then exhorteth he full holyly, and in manner con[…]ureth also the re[…] […] lorde god, that he shall rede ouer the two pystles of saynt Poule wrytē to Timothe, wherof hym selfe also reherseth parte / whych who so euer rede, shall se therin both the false malyce of the mā, and yet the workyng of god therewyth. For god hath caused Tyn[…]al[…] to putte in suche thynges as dyrectyly reproue his owne condycyons / and the deuyll hath made hym falsely to l[…]ue out those wordes which yf he hadde set in / muste nedes haue openly declared that all is heresye that euer he gothe aboute.

For saynt Paule there teacheth Timothe to beware and avoyde the companye of men of corrupte myndes, whyche waste theyr braynes aboute wrangelynge questyons. And Tyndale is in companye of none other / but such as Luther is and frere Huskyn and theyr felowes, that had wasted out theyr wyttes so longe about wrangelynge heresyes, yt now they are fallen at laste to runne out of relyg[…]on, and waste out theyre braynes aboute wrangelyng wyues.

Saynt Poule also teacheth Tymothe, that he sholde not sharpely rebuke any man that were elder then hym sel[…]e, but exhorte hym as his father, though hym selfe was bys[…]hope and as Tyndale sayth an apostle to. Now Tyndale beyng neyther nother, nor hauynge any offyce so mych as among heretiques: letteth neyther sharpely to rebuke his elders in age, nor also to ieste and rayle vppon all states spyrytuall and temporall thorow out all Crystendome, and namely agaynste all relygyouse men, but yf they wyll runne out and wedde. And thus ye maye se wyth what frute Tyndale readeth saynt Paule.

Now wold I that Tyndale had putte in this place these wordes that he leueth out: Noli […]gligere gratiam quae in te[…] est, quae data est tibi per pr[…]y[…]etiam, cum impositione manuum presbyteri. Neglecte not the grace that is in the,² whych was geuen the by prophecye, wyth the puttynge vppon the handes of a prest. And […]fterwarde in the.ii. pystle:³ Admoneo te vt resuscites gratiam […]e[…], qu[…]e est in te per impositionem manuū mearū. I warne the that thou […]tyrre vppe the grace of god, that is in the by the putty[…]e of myn handes vppon the.

These wordes of saint Paule to Timothe i[…] those pystles whyche Tyndale exhorteth euery man to rede, and wherof hym selfe rehers[…]th also partes[…] do manyfes[…]ely reproue […]ndales heresye, and clerely proue the holy order of prestehed a sacrament.

For these places shewe bothe ye sensyble sygne of […] the apostles hādes vppon Timothe in the makyng of hym preste / and also that god gaue hys grace therwyth. And the fyrst texte sheweth also after the greke (in whyche it is wyth the puttynge vppon the handes not of a preste as the latyn is but of prestehed) the power and authoryte that Timothe had in gyuynge the same grace forthe vnto other[…] whom he sholde after make prestes.

And these textes do so playnely reproue hym / that he is fayne to make a shamefull shamelesse shyfte to voyde them, suche as all the worlde may wonder at. For he sayth in his boke of obedyence, that the puttynge on of saynte Paules handes vppon Timothe was no sacramentall sygne / nor any other thynge but a custume of puttyng a mannys hand vppon a nother / as men do here vppon a boyes hed when they call hym good sonne / or as saynt Paule vsed to streche out hys arme to the people when he preched.

what auayleth it to lay manyfeste holy scrypture to Tyndale, that forceth so lytell so manyfestely to mokke it. Tyndale cryeth out that euery man myssecōstrueth ye scrypture / and then hym selfe ye se what construccyon he maketh. Saynt Paule sayth playnly that Timothe receyued grace by the puttynge of hys handes vppon hym. And Tyndale letteth not to tell hym as playnely nay / and that he dyd but stroke Timothees hed and call hym good sonne, by lykely hede bycause he was but yonge. But how so euer Tyndale lyste to tryfle / these places playnely reproue and connycte hys heresye, and proue prestehed an holy sacrament.

Now falleth he to raylyng[…] vppon the holy ceremonyes of prestehed as shauynge & anoyntynge. And fyrste he sayth that yf onely shauen and anoynted may preche or cōsecrate the sacramentys: then Cryste dyd them not nor none of his apostles, nor any man in longe tyme after / for they vsed no suche ceremonyes.

Thys is a worthy ieste I promyse you. If melysted here to tryfle as Tyndale doeth / I coude aske hym how he proueth that saynt Peter was neuer shauen, syth I suppose he neue[…] saw hym / or yf he wolde put me to proue that he was shau[…]n, and therin when I coude fynde no playne scrypture for it[…] Tyn[…]ale wold not byleue me but yf I broughte forth hys barb[…]: I myghte tell Tyndale agayne that I were not boside[…] […]yth the s[…]pture sheweth it not, to byleue hym that […]ayn[…] […] cry[…]tened, tyll Tyndale brynge forthe hys godfather.

But these fantasyes of hys and myne bothe, go farre fro the mater. The trouth is that as god by Moyses taughte hys synagoge certayne goodly ceremonyes for the garnysshynge of ye seruyce done to hym by his chosen people there, and for the styrynge of them to deuocyon: so hath he by hys owne holy spyryte whom he sent to instructe hys chyrche, taught them holy ceremonyes to be vsed about hys blessed sacramētes, to the honour therof and to the encreace of crysten mennys deuocyon, as in dede it doth what so euer Tyndale bable. Now be there amonge these, the shauynge and the anoyntynge of the preste. And so is there thapparayle of the preste at masse, and many other obseruaūces vsed in the same. Now yf some of the same were before vsed eyther amonge iewes or paynyms / yet Crystes chyrche borowed them neyther of the iewes nor the paynyms as Tyndale sayth, but toke them agayne of god. Now where Tyndale argueth yt yf none maye consecrate the sacrament but onely shauen and anoynted, then Cryste nor any of hys apostles myghte not, bycause they were neuer shauen nor anoynted: he maketh a worshyppefull reason. For fyrste our sauyour Cryste the very inwarde anoynted preste, whom god hadde anoynted wyth the oyle of gladnes aboue all hys felowes: neded neyther ceremony nor sacrament as towchynge hym selfe. And as towchynge hys apostles, though Cryste vnto them instytuted sacramentes: yet he lefte many of the ceremonyes to the holy ghoste to teche, by whom they be instytuted and by whom they be in the chyrche contynued. Now is there none that maye cons[…]crate the sacrament, but yf he be fyrste made preste / and pre[…]te is there none made, but the ceremonyes of shauynge and anoyntynge are vsed in ye makynge / though they be not the substaunce of the sacrament of order, no more then ye cathecismes and exorcism[…] at the crystenyng, be of the substaūce of ye sacrament of ba[…]ysme. And therfore though before those ceremonyes vsed, prestes myghte consecrate vnshauen and vnanoynted, when shauynge and anoyntyng was not yet instytuted: yet now can there none do so, syth there is no preste made vnshauen and vnanoynted. For yf they make any at wyttēberge by a bare choyse, wythout the gyuynge of ye sacrament of holy orders by such as haue power to gyue them / they be no prest[…] […] maye not consecrate at all, no more then maye th[…] […]

Tyndale

And seynge that the oyle is not of necessite: let M. More tell me what more vertue is in the oyle of confyrmacyon, in as mych as the byshoppe sacryth the one as well as the other / ye and let hym tell the reason why there shuld be more vertue in the oyle wherewith the byshoppe anoynteth his prestes Lette hym tell you from whence the oyle cometh, how it is made, and why he selleth yt to the curates wherewyth they anoynte the sycke, or whether this be of lesse vertue then the other.

Tyndale here putteth many questyons to me, whyche he wyll that I muste nedys answere bycause the oyle in the makynge of a preste is not of necessyte / but surely these questyons be to ye mater of mych lesse necessyte. How be it bycause I must nedys answere to men of suche authoryte, when the questyons be so solempnely put: I saye that yf a bysshoppe sacre the tone oyle and the tother bothe alyke, there is no more vertue in the tone then is in the tother. But I say that the oyle beynge all one / it is in the anoyntynge of the preste an holy ceremony / and in the anoyntynge of the chylde at confyrmacyon it is the mater of an holy sacrament / and in y• anelyng of ye sycke also, and euery of these two is one of the seuen, whyche the spyryte of god hath taught the chyrche of Cryste to knowe and vse for.vii. souerayne meanys of very specyall grace.

And therfore such dyfference is there, as is bytwene the halowed water standynge in the font before it be occupyed, or yf it were sprynkled vppon a man for holy water / and the same holowed water beynge occupyed in the crystenynge of a chylde at the tyme in whyche it is applyed thereto. For in that tyme besyde the goodnes that it hath of the halowyng / it hath a nother effectuall goodnes by goddys ordynaunce, whereby it is made a meane of purgyng the soule fro synne and[…] infusyon of goddys grace, and of enablynge the newe regendred creature to inherytaunce of heuyn.

And when Tyndale asketh me in any of these thynges ye cause & ye reason why: I myght as well aske hym ye cause and reason why, in the nature and properte of any naturall thynge, beste, herbe, tre, or stone. whych yf I were so madde to loke that Tyndale were able to tell me: what had he more to saye, then that god had planted that nature and properte therin[…] whych answere shall also serue in these holy ceremonyes and […]a[…]ramētes / wherof the vertues be caused by goddes ordyna[…]ce thorow his holy wordes, whereof the profyte is lymyt[…] and po[…]n[…]d after such rate and degrees[…] as is to no man full & perfitely knowē but onely to god that gyueth it. And thus answere I Tyndale to these qstyones.

He asketh farther from whence ye oyle cōmeth, and wherof yt is made: what is yt any more to ye mater, then frō whēs the water is fet yt is put in to the fonte, or of what grapes ye wyne was made yt Cryst at his maūdye turned īto his blood

Now where he asketh me why the byshope selleth it vnto the curates wherewith they anoynt ye sycke: thereto I saye that the byshoppe sendeth yt to the curates, bycause they shold therwith anoynte ye sycke in the sacramēt of anoylyng

But why he selleth yt to the curates yf he so dyd: therof can I not tell the cause / but yf yt were peraduēture bycause he wold be payed therfore. But I cā tell well yt the byshop selleth it not to curates nor no man ellis, but ye curatis haue it sent thē fre, but if they reward ye brynger of theyr courtesy with a grote, which brynger is yet ye archidecons seruaūt, & not ye byshops. And this I can tell for I haue inquyred for ye nonys. And by this cā I tell as well y• Tindale here bylyeth the byshope shamfully for the nonys.

Tyndale

And when he affyrmeth that I saye how the oylynge and shauyng is no parte of the presthed: that improueth he not nor can do, and therfore I saye yt yet.

It is very truth that I improue hym not in that poynt / but am well content that he saye yt yet, and I wyll saye the same. But I improue that he sayth euery Crysten man and euery woman to, is as veryly a preste as these that at the recepte of that holy order are both anoynted and shauē. This is yt that I improue / and this is yt that is a starke heresye though Tyndale saye yt yet.

Tyndale

When he enserched the vttermost that he cā: this is all that he cā say agaynst me / that of an hūdred there be not tenne that haue the propertees which Paule requyreth to be in them. Wherfore yf oylynge and shauy[…]ge be no parte of theyr preesthed: then euer more of a thousan[…]e.ix. hundred at the le[…]te sholde be no prestes at all. And quoth your frende wolde confyrme yt wyth an othe and […]were depely that yt wolde folowe, and that it muste nedys so be. Whych argument yet yf there were none other shyfte / I wolde solue after an Oxforde fashyon wyth concedo couse quentiam & consequens.

Tyndale here maketh a tale, as though yt were a dyaloge or rather a tryaloge, bytwene hymselfe, the messenger, and me / sayenge that I in my dialoge dyd alledge, that yf […]ylynge and shauynge were no parte of theyr pr[…]h[…]d / then of a thousande prestes nyne hōdred at the leste were no prestes at all, for lakke that […]f an hundred prestes, there be not tenne that haue the propertes that saynt Paule requyreth to be in them. And he sayth the messenger wolde afferme yt wyth a great othe / and that hym selfe wolde yf there were none other shyfte, soyle yt after an Oxforde fashyon, wyth concedo consequentiam & consequens. wherin he meaneth that syth he sheweth none other shyft, he graūted both twayne for trew / that is to wytte that excepte oylynge and shauynge be parte of the prestehed, ellys yt muste nedys folow that of a thousande prestes nyne hundred be none at all for lakke of good condycyons. And also he graunteth not onely that of reason yt wolde so folow / but also that yt is trew in dede, that for as so myche as oylyng and shauyng be not the thynges that maketh them prestes, and good cōdicyons they lakke / therfore they be no prestes at all.

But for as mych as he sayth that he wyll soyle yt so for lakke of other shyfte / he shall not nede so to do / for I wyll fynde hym a nother shyfte my selfe, and a playne contrarye shyfte, and soyle yt wyth nego consequentiā & consequens. For where as he graunteth bothe to be trew: I saye that they be bothe false. And where as he maketh as though they were myne owne wordes and the messengers with me: in good fayth I neyther remember them nor fynde thē, all be yt that I haue purposely loked for them in all such places of my dyaloge, as me thought yt shold be yf yt were there at all. And therefore leuynge ye poynt in questyone betwene vs, tyll I come to replye to his answere made vnto my dialoge / at whyche tyme I shall rede yt ouer of necessyte and muste nedes fynd yt yf yt be therin: I wyll i[…] ye meane whyle not let if I sayed yt my selfe, to say that I sayd wronge. For by goddes grace neuer wyll I wyttyngly whyle I lyue defende the thynge that my selfe shall thynke vntrew, though yt hadde happed me to saye yt my selfe / but that I shall well and playnely reuoke yt and call yt bakke, not dissymulyng myn owne ouer syght. And wold god Tyndale wolde do the lyke & Luther to / they sholde then neyther so styffely defende so shamelesse heresyes as they do, nor make so shamelesse gloses of theyr owne formare wordes, when they se them so reproued that they can in no wise defende them / nor so shamefully chaung from worse to worse, as Luther hath agaynste his owne cō scyence done in some one mater thryes.

To the mater I saye therfore, that yt is false that yf oylynge and shauynge be no parte of the presthed, then it must folow that of a thousande there be.ix. hundred no preestys at all. For I say that oylynge and shauyng be no parte of ye presthed in dede / but be holy ceremonyes vsed about the cō secracyon / lykewyse as in matrymony and baptysme both, be dyuerse holy ceremonyes vsed that be not the essencyall poyntes of those sacramentes. And therfore is yt false that yf oylynge and shauynge be no parte of the presthed, ye prest is no preste for lakke of prestely vertues. For the holy sacrament of order is gyuen hym by the imposycyon of the bysshoppes handes vppon hym, in such wyse as the chyrche of Cryste vseth and euer hath vsed synnys the deth of Cryste vnto these dayes.

And that the grace by god appoynted vnto holy orders is geuen wyth that puttyng vppon of the handes / is twyes declared by saynt Paule in his pystles to Tymothe / & that so playnely that yt greueth Tyndales herte to here thereof, and maketh hym to make a mokke thereat, and saye it was but lyke as a man layeth his hande on a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne.

But the place is for all that so playne / that when Tyndale so playeth therwyth and so lawgheth thereat: he lawgheth but from the lyppes forwarde, and gyrneth as a dog doth when one porreth hym in the teeth wyth a stykke. And thus haue I proued the consequency to be false, which Tyndale graunteth for trew. Now to thet other parte, that is to wyt the consequente whych he graunteth for trew also, I saye yt yt is false also. For lyke wyse as he graunteth that a preste is no preste at all for lakke of prestely condycyons: so myght he saye as well that a crysten man is not crystyned at all, for lakke of crysten condycyons. And bycause Tyndale wyll haue a preste nothyng but an offycer: yet after his owne false and fonde fashyon he sholde not graunte yt for trew. For then muste he saye that euery euyll offycer, mayre, baylye, constable, or shyryffe yf he mysse vse hym self in his offyce, were forthwyth out of offyce. And thus ye se that the consequente is false, whyche Tyndale also graunteth to be trew.

But all this bysenesse maketh he for hatered and dyspyte that he bereth to presthed, and to the dyuyne seruice that the prestes say, wherof hym self sayth none at all / & for the malyce that he bereth to the masse whych hym self neuer sayth / and vnto the holy sacramētes which the prestes minystreth, aud whych Tyndale vtterly stryueth to destroye.

Mat. 10 ↩
1. Timoth. 4
↩
1. Timoth. 1.
↩

Chapter 90 of 95