The.viii. chapyter

The author entreth the answere to ye obieccyons that had ben before layde by the messenger / agaynst the worshyp of ymagys / and prayng to sayntys / and goynge on pylgrymagys. And fyrst he answereth in this chapytre thobieccyōs made agaynst praynge to sayntys.

NOw therfore as I saye ferther nede I not to go. But yet wyll I somwhat touch y• thyngꝭ whych as ye say do moue many mē to take ye worshyp of ymagꝭ for ydolatry. And yt so takē & theyr opynyō so reputed / they teken yt a groūde to thynke ye myracles done at ye ymagys / or by […] of sayntys to be yllusyōs of ye d[…]uyl. And fyrst wyll we begy[…] at ye sayntys them selfe. And by ye waye shall we speke of theyr relyques ymagys & pylgrymagꝭ as there shal occasiō ry[…]e in our mater. And for ye fyrst in good fayth sauynge that ye bokes & writīgꝭ of holy doetors cōdempne these mēnys heresyes / y• dyspleasure & anger wherof setteth them on a fyre to […]udy for ye mynyshynge of theyr estymacyō that so stande in theyr lyght / ellys wold I myth wōtet what these here ty[…]ts mette to impugne the worshyp of sayntꝭ & forbed vs to pray to them. And all […] here vs. And yf they do / yet whyther they can helpe vs. And fynally yf they coulde / yet wold they we shold thynke yt soly to dysyre theym bycause god cā do yt better & wyll do yt […]ouer hym self than they all. Now where they dowt whyther sayntys here vs / I metuayle wherof that dowt aryseth / but yf they thynke theym dede as well in soule as body. For yf theyr holy sowles lyue / there wyll no wyse man wene theym […]urse and of lesse loue and charyte to men that nede theyr helpe whan they be now in heuen / than they had whan they were here in erthe. For all that whyle were they neuer so good / yet the best was worse thā the worst is now. As our sauyoure sayd by saynt Iohn̄ ye baptyste / that there was no womans sone gretter than be / yet the lest that was al redy in heuyn was hys better. We se that the nerer that folke drawe thytherwa[…]d / ye more good mynde bere they to men here. And therfore sayn[…] Stephē whan he sawe heuyn open for hym / he began to pray for theim ye malycyously kylled hym. And thynke we than that beyng in heuyn he wyll not vou[…]hesaufe to pray for theym that deuoutly honour hym / but hath lesse loue and charyte […]eyng there / than he had goyng thy therward? yf the tyche mā that laye in hell had yet not onely for fears of encreace of hys owne punyshment by hys mothers damynacyō growyng of hys euyll ensample insy[…]ne / but also of a c[…]nall loue & […] of blyssed charyte in heue[…]/wyll no thyng care for theyr brethren in Cryst whome they se here in thys wreched world? Now yf there be no dout as I trowe none theris / but theyr holy soules be alyue / they wold we dyd well. And as lytle dowte but that they bealyue yf god be theyr god / as he is in dede / and he not the god of dede men but of lyuyng / as our sauyour sayth in the gospell / for all men lyue styll and euer shall / that he hath taken to hym […]nys gyuē lyue vnto / there rest[…]th thā no ferther tose but whyther they can do vs eny good or no / eyther for yt they cā not here vs / or for that they cā not help vs. & fyrst I me[…]uayl mych yf they thīke they cā not helpe vs. For whyle they were tere they coude as appereth in thactys of […]hapostles. And syth imbe[…]yllyte & lacke of power is here part of our mysery / and strength of plentye of power is one grete parts of welthe / they were well forthered in that poynt yf they were now lesse able to do good to theym whom they sayne wold were holpē / thā they were before. For whyther they be able there to do yt theym self / or onely by theyr intercessyon made vnto god / thys maketh no forse for our mater / so that by theyr meanes y• tone ways or the tother we take helpe by our deuocyon toward theym & prayer made vnto them. I thynke q be they may do in dede mythe more than they myght both by power and prayer. But yt is harde somwhat to thynke / that they shold he[…]e vs and se vs / and specyally in so many placys at onys. For though they be not cyrcumscrybed in place for lac[…]e of bodyly dymensyō and men[…]ryng / yet are they and […] so placed where they be for the tyme / that they be not at one tyme in dyuerse placys at onys as sayntys be in sundry co[…]ntryes / & very farre asūdre called vppō at onys. Ye meruayle quod I and thyn[…]e yt harde to be byleued / that sayntys here vs. And I whyle we se that ye thyngꝭ we pray for we obtayn / meruayl mych more how men can dowt whyther the prayers be hard or not. Whā s[…]yntys were in thys world at lyberte & myght wal[…]yd the worlde about / wene we yt in heuē they stand tyed to a p[…]ste? But the wonder is how they m[…]y se & here in sondry placys at onys. Yf […] two coulde no more but fele and neyther se nor here / we wolde as well wondre. Or yf we could not wondre therof by cause we co[…]lde not here therof / yet shold we be farre from eny cōceyuyng in our mynde / that it w[…]re […] for man to se or here ferther th[…] he can fele. For we that proue yt and d[…] se and here in dede / can n[…]t yet se th[…] cause / nor in no wyse cea[…] to wondre by what reason and meane yt may be / that I sh[…]lde se tw[…] chyrches or two townes eche of th[…] ̄ two […] myle a sonder / & bothe twayne as farre fr[…] me as eche of theym […]com[…] other / and measure so grete qu[…]tytyes wyth so small a me[…]sur[…] as is the lytle apple of myn eye. And of h[…]ryng m[…]ny mēnys voycis or eny […]nys w[…]dꝭ / […]o[…]ing at onys in to ma[…] me[…]ny[…]rys […]andyng far a s[…]der / h[…]h ly[…] di[…]yculte to cōceyue. And wh[…]n all the reas[…]ns be made eyther of […]emys s[…]t out frō […]ur eyen to the thingꝭ that w[…] behold / or the fygure of ye thyngis sene / […]typlyed in the ayre from ye thyng[…] to our eye / or of the […]yre […]rykē wyth ye breth of ye speker / and […]qually […]lly[…] forth in […]undels to the eares of the herers / whan all the reasons be herd / yet shall we rather delyte to serche than be able to fynde eny thynge in these maters yt were able to make vs ꝑceyue yt. Now whan we may wyth our flesshly eye & ere in thys gr[…]ce b[…]dy se and here thyngys far dystaūt from vs and from sondry placys far dystaunt a sonder / meruayll we so mych that blyssed aungels and holy soules / beyng mere spyrytual subst[…]uncys / vncharged of all bourdyn[…]us flessh[…] and bonys / may in doyng the same as ferre p[…]sse and excede vs & our powers naturall / as ye lyuely soule selfe excedeth our deedly body / nor can n[…]t byleue they here vs thoughe we fynde they helpe vs / but yf we perceyued by what m[…]nes they do yt / as whyther they se and here vs comynge hyther to vs / or our voyce comīg hens[…] to theym / or whyther god here and se all & shewe yt theym / or whyther they b[…]h[…]ld yt in hym as one doth in a boke the thynge that he redeth / or whyther god by some other way dooth vtter yt vnto theym as one dooth in spekyng / except w[…] may knowe the meanes we wyll not ellys byleue the m[…]er? As wyse as were […]e that wold not byleue […] can se / bycawse he can not perceyue by what […] he maye se. Yet se I qu[…]d he no cause or nede why we shold pray […] theym / syth god can as well & wyll as gladly b[…]th here vs and helpe […] as eny saynt in heuē. What nede y[…] quod I to praye eny physycyon to helpe your feuer / or pray and […]ay eny s[…]geon to h[…]le your s[…]re legge / syth god can here you and helpe you bothe as wel as the best / & loueth you better and can do yt soner / and maye aforthe […] pl[…]sher […]h[…]tter chepe / & gyue you more for your word thā they for your mony? But this is his pleasur quod he that I shalbe holpen by the meane of theym as hys instrumentys / though in dede all thys he doth hym selfe[…] syth he gyueth the nature to the thyngys yt they do yt wyth. So hath yt quod I pleased god in lyke wyse / that we shal aske help of hys holy sayntꝭ / And pray for helpe to theym. Nor that is not a makyng of theym equal vnto god hym self though they do yt by hys wyl & power / or he at theyr ītercessiō. Though god wyll as reason is / be chyef & haue no matche / yet forbedeth he not one man to pray for helpe of a nother. And thoughe the father hath gyuen all the Iudgemēt to hys sone / yet doth he delyte to haue his holy sayntis pertyne[…]s of that honour / and at the day of Iudgement to haue theym syt wyth hym. Was Helyseus made egall to god bycause the wydowe prayed hym to reuyue her dede sone? Were the apostles egall to Cryste bycause that they were prayd vnto for help after hys deth[…] in hys lyfe also? And many thyngy[…] dyd they at fol[…]ys prayer: And some tyme they were prayed vnto and assayed yt also / and yet coulde not do yt / but the parties were fayne to go fro theym to theyr maister therfore. And yet was he content that they were praye[…] vnto. And for profe therof suffred theyin at mennys deuout inst[…]unce and prayer / to do many myracles. And somtym[…] were they prayed to be ītercess[…]s to theyr mayster. As where they cam[…] to Cryst & sayd / Dimitte […]llam[…] […]amat post nos / dyspache thys woman for she cryeth vppō vs. And thynk you than that he beynge content & gy[…]yng men occasyon to pray to theym […] they were wyth hym in erthe[…] he wyll be angry yf we do theym as mych worshyp whā they be wyth hym in heuyn? Nay / but I thynke on the tother syde syth his pleasure is to haue hys sayntꝭ had in honoure and prayed vnto / that they may be for vs intecessours to hys hygh mayestye / where vnto ere we presume to approche / yt becometh vs and well behoueth vs to make frendys of suche as he hath in fauoure. He wyll dysdayn / onys to loke at vs yf we be so presumpt[…]se and malapert felowes / that vppon boldnes of famyliaryte wt hym selfe / we dysdayn to make our intercessours hys especyall byloued frendis. And where saynt Poule exhorteth vs eche to pray for other / & we be glad to thīk yt well done to pray euery pore man to pray for vs / sholde we thynke yt euyll done to pray holy […]ayntꝭ in heuen to the same? Why q he by that reasō I myght pray not only to saītꝭ / but also to euery other dede mā. So[…] may ye quod I wyth good reason / y[…] ye se none other lykelyhed but that he […]yed a good mā. And so fynde we (as I remēbre) in the d[…]alogys of sayu[…] Gregory / y• one had helpe by prayou[…] made vnto an holy man late de[…]eaced whych was him self yet in purgatory? So lyked yt our lorde to let the world knowe that he was in hys specyall fauoure / though he were yet in payne of hys p[…]rg[…]cyō. For our lo[…]de loued hym neuer the […]/though he lefte not for hym ye order of hys m[…]yfull[…] Iustyce. And therfore let no mā take hys trouble or […]y[…]ne[…] as a t[…] o[…] goddys hatered but yf he f[…]l[…] hym sel[…] […]tudge and […]s impacyēt and euyll c[…]nce[…] wyth yt. For thā is ye […] tokē of wrath and venge[…]ce and […] to th[…] […]ere[…] […]s frutfull as paynfull. And in effecte noth[…]g ellys but the begynnynge of hys hell euyn here. But on the tother syde yf he take yt pacyētly yt purgeth / yf gladly yt gretly mereteth / and glad may he be that is with m[…]kenes glad of goddys punys[…]ēt. Saynt Austyn as is wrytten by Pos[…]ydo[…]ius lyenge sure seke hym selfe of an a[…]es / cured a […]other wyth hys prayour / and yet h[…] dyed of his sykenesse hym selfe[…] where in there was to hym more mercy and fauour shewed / than yf hym selfe had ben cured to. For now in […]ede of helth he had heuē where he shold neuer more be seke agayne. Mary quod he but I haue euer herde yt sayd th[…]t we sholde not pray to eny dede mā but wyth this condycyō / yf thou be a saynt th[…] pray for me. Why so q I more thā praīg to a quycke mā / where I am not boūd to say yf thou be a good man pray for […]. But syth I may resonably thy […] hym good whyle I knowe hym not ye cōtrary / so m[…]ye I thynke hym that is dede. Why quod he wherof serueth canonysynge than. Yf thys be trewe I am neuer auysed to be canoni[…]ed why[…] I lyue. Ye do the better qu[…]d I / nor seuē yere a[…]ter neyther. For yt w[…]ld be but a busynes for you. But why be they th[…]n canonysed than quod he? These quod I that be not canonised / ye may for the more part both pray for theym & pray to theym. As ye may for and to theym that b[…]n yet alyue. But one that is canonysed ye may praye to hym to pray for you / but ye maye not for hym. For as I remēber saynt Austeyn saythe that he that prayeth for a martyr doth ye martyr i[…]ury. And of euery mā ye may trust well and be seldom certayne / but of the canonysed ye may reken you sure.