The.xvii. chapyter

HIs.xvii. chapyter begynneth folio.lxii. In ye begynnyng wherof he merue[…]e[…]h that I speke so ofte in myne apology, of his vsyng this word Some saye. And he sheweth that in a […]ale tolde hym by other folke, there is good reason that he so sholde say / and that I vse the same worde my selfe to sometyme, and telleth two places where, fo. 77. and fo. 100. I neither dyd nor wyll fynde fawt that he vse this worde some say / nor I wyll not let (where the case requireth) to saye my selfe, yt some say this or that. For I know well it is englyshe. But the fawte that I founde and yet fynd, is that hys booke of diuysyon abuseth the figure of so many some sayes, to the sedicyo[…]s slawnder / of ye clergye / and specyally of thordinaryes in the punysshement of heresy, to bryng thē in obloquy of the people therby. And where as vppon cōplayntꝭ made the maters haue late ben examined, & the treuth hath ben playnely proued contrary: yet hath he neuer one Some say therof in al his boke, neyther in ye tone boke nor the tother / but all hys Some sayes euer more saye euyll, & neuer a Some say well. This is the fawte that I fynde. For yf he made a boke with fiue times as many good Some sayes, as his Some sayes in that boke be nought: I wold fynd in his Some sayes no defawt at all. For some say is (as I saye) good englysshe. But whan a booke is full of shrewde Some sayes: there do some men saye, that Some saye is as shrewd an englysh, as any dowch woman speketh.

But now to shew that in all hys Some sayes he meneth none harme, he goeth ferther, and for a sample he bryngeth forth one, whych is in very dede a very malycyouse noughty pestylent Some saye, wherof the pretence is the sauegarde of innocentes / theffecte is the dekaye of the faythe by the boldyng of heretykes, the instrument is a false imagyned slaūder agaynst the ordynaryes. And as wylyly as those shrewys that begyle hym haue holpe hym to inuolue and in[…]ryke the mater: I shall vse so playne and open a waye therin, that euery man shall well se the trouth.

Lo these are thys good mannes wordes.

And one of the (some sayes) that he fyndeth defau[…]e at is thys: I saye in the.viii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse thus: And here some saye[…] that bycause there is so greate a desyre in spyrytuall men, to haue men ab[…]iured or to be noted wyth heresye: And that some as it were of a polycye doo noyse it, that the realme is full of heretykes, more then it is in dede, that it is very peryllous, that spyrytuall men shulde haue auctoryte to arres[…]e a man for euery lyght sus […]peccyon or complaynt of heresye, tyll that desyre of punyshement in spyrytuall men be ceassed and gone but that they sholde make processe agayne them to brynge them in vppon payne of cursynge: and then y[…] they t[…]ye.vi. dayes, the kynges lawes to bryng them in[…] by a wrytte of Excommunicato capiendo, and so to be brought forth out of the kynges gayo[…]e to an[…]were. And it foloweth in the sayd.viii. chapiter thu[…]: but surely as it is somwhat touched bef[…]re in the.vii. chapyter, it semeth that the churche in tyme […] haue done what they coulde to brynge about that they myght punysh heresy of them self, wythout cal[…]ynge for any helpe therin of the […]ecular power. And therfore they haue made lawes that heretykes m[…]ght be arrested, and put in pryson, and stockes y[…] nede w[…]re, as appe[…]eth in Clementinis de h[…]reticis, Cap. Multorum querela. And after at the specyall cal[…]ynge on of the spyrytualty, it was enacted by parlyament, that or[…]ynaryes myght arest men[…] that preche[…] holde, teche, or enforme other in heresye, there pr[…]h[…]yte, or that therof holde any […]onuentycles or […]ch[…]ys. For […]me men thynke that the sayd Clementine was not of effect in the kyn[…]es lawes to arrest any man for heresye. But yf a man were openly and notably sus[…]ected of heresye, and there were suffycyent recorde and wytnes agaynste hym and there were also a d[…]u[…]te, that he wolde […]lee and not appere, wherby he myght infecte other it […]meth cōuenyent[…] that he be arrested by the body, but not vpon euery lyght complaynt that full lyghtly may be vntrue. And that it wyll be […]yght expedyent that the kynges hygh[…]es and hys consayle […]oke […]pecyally vpon thys mater, and not to cesse, tyl it be brought to moore quietnes then it is yet: and to se with great dylygence that pryde, couetyse, nor worldly loue be not iudges, nor innocentes be punysshed ne yet that wylfull o[…]fenders go not wyth[…]ut due correccyon.

And when mays[…]er More in his apologye hath recyted the sayd wordes of the sayd trea[…]y[…]e: then he endeuoyreth hym sel[…]e very moch, to make it […]ppere that the mocions that he made in the s[…] treatyse in the place before rehersed be vnreasonable, & can not be brought aboute: or els that yf they we[…]e brought aboute they sholde do hurte and […]. And to make hys sayenges the more accept[…] / he la[…]eth sometyme defa[…]te in my sayenges and sayth tha[…] I therby defame the iudges spyrytuall, where I defame them not / but say onely that it is […]pedyent that the kynge[…] hyghnes and hys couns[…]yle se / that pryde couetys[…] nor worldly […]one be n[…] iudges. And whether thoo wordes amount to that effecte / that mays[…]er More sayth they do / that is […] saye that I defame all spyrytuall iudges it appereth e[…] dentely they do not.

Now good readers to the entent that you may the more playnely perceyue, both the good mynde of thys good mannys fyrst boke of dyuysyō and also his secunde boke here in defence of ye same: take ye labour to rede the.xlvi. chapyter of myne apologye fo. 232. And than shall you thynke I suppose, yt all hys defence is so faint that I lytell nede to reply.

For fyrst where he sayth, that I saye that in those wordes, he dyffameth the iudges spyrytuall: I wold he had rehersed my wordꝭ with whiche I saye so. For I am sure inough my wordꝭ be no larger than ye treuth. But that is hys vsuall crafte to leue out for the more part, both my wordꝭ & the place, bycause mē myght wene it were ī some part of my boke though they remember not where.

But now bycause he sayeth, that it is euydent that those wordes of his do not amounte vnto the dyffamaciō of the spyrytuall iudges: I haue shewed and proued in dede in one or two places of myne apologye, that a[…]l the great mater of his complaynt, vppon the crueltye of the spyrytuall iudges, in handelyng men for heresy, syth there hath bene very fewe troubled therfore in any dyocise in Englande or Walys / by ye space of these xx. yeres or.xxx. laste passed / except onely Lyncoln and London / and that therfore the false complaynt of mysse handelynge, could haue lytle colour any farther then those two dyoceses / and yet to saye the […]routhe neuer complaynt broughte forth by any suche man but in London dyocese, nor yet not but in London and some pyece of Essex alone / and the complayntes vppon examinacyon hadde by the kynges honorable counsayle, alwaye founde causelesse and false: syth thys is I saye so clere, that no man can saye the contrarye, but that thys is trew, I declare and shew in my sayde appologye, that where wyth hys false some sayes he defameth and laboreth to brynge in obloquye of the people, all the spyrytuall iudges in the realme: of wrong and cruell handelynge men for heresye, all the men yt his false some says (if they were trew) dyd touche, were yet in dede so few, that he myght in a maner as well speke of thē by name. And in very dede so few they be. For they be as few or fewer, then are the iuges eyther of the tone benche or the tother.

And therfore whē he cometh now forthe vnder shadowe of a shrewed some saye, and sheweth that the spyrytualle men haue a great desyre to put men to abiuracyon, and to haue mē noted of heresy, and that therfore tyll they leue that condycyon, it were well done they sholde haue lesse authorytie / & that yt wyll be ryght expedyent that the kynge and hys counsayle loke specyally vppon thys mater, and to se wyth great dylygence, that pryde, couetise, nor worldly loue be not iudges, nor innocentes punnyshed, nor yet that offenders go not wythout dew correccyon: ys not this a lewde colored slaunder and (wythout any such thynge proued) a shame lesse dyffamacyon?

If thys good man wold in lyke wyse wryte and put in prent a nother boke, and there in speke fyrst of ius[…]yces in generall, as it myght s[…]me to touche all the iudges of euery base court, & iustyces of the peace to / and then by some certayn cyrcūstaunces restrayne it in such wyse, […]hat euery mā may se that he meaneth onely the kyngꝭ iuges at w[…]stmynster, […] say, yt some say that specially of la[…]e the maters of comen plees be euyll hādeled by the iudges / and yt in writtes o[…] errour & in ple[…]s of the crowne the iudges mysse handle the people sore and do mych wrong / & that some say that they haue this euyl desyre, & yt / & yt tyl they haue left them, it were w[…]l done that they had lesse authoryte. And thē after such a false folyshe some say[…], com forth with his sayeng, & in approbacyon of his other sayng, conclude & saye thus myche farther, it wyll be ryght expediēt therfore, that the kynges hyghnesse and hys counsayle loke specally vppon this mater, and to se wyth great dylygēce that pryde couetyce, nor worldely loue be not iuges &c, were this wyly folyshe handelynge no false dyffamacyon at all?

And nowe when he handeleth the spyrytuall ordynaryes wyth lyke wordꝭ for heresye, and his somesays false ymagyned lyes / and though hys boke of dyuison laboreth to draw that false suspicyon farther / yet hym selfe seeth by experyence that whyle there hathe in long whyle but in two dyoceses very fewe bene punyshed for heresye, the slaunder that he soweth toucheth some very few, no lesse thē though he wrote in theyr names. How cā he therfore for very shame saye that yt is no dyffamacyon? Weneth he the reders of his worke were all such folys, that he myght auoyde his playne open dede wyth his bare bolde worde, where he sayth yt appereth euydentely nay, where euery wyse man that readeth yt seeth well hym selfe that yt well appereth euydently yes.

Nowe goeth he farther wyth a nother pyece and sayth.

Nor yet my wordes proue not that I wolde haue al spyrytuall iudges chaunged. For the spyrytuall iudges that be nowe, maye be iudges styll, and haue al the propertyes before rehersed, as well as other, for any thyng that I haue sayd. And yet mayster More taketh yt otherwy[…]e, and sayeth / I wolde haue such iudges, as haue no spyce of any of the sayd poyntes. And he sayth, that tyll suche iudges may be founde, heretykes may make mery for a lytle season / why[…]e men walke aboute and seche for such iudges / which he weneth wyll not be done in a wekes worke.

Here he leueth oute agayne the place of myne that he toucheth. For when that is ones redde, all hys gay tale is gone. For there shall you se that I consyder hys wordes, and declare two wayes that the good man myght meane / of whyche twanne he taketh here the tone, and the tother he lette[…]h slype. And yet in takynge his wordes as he wolde nowe seme: my wordes whyche he dyssembleth here, turne vppe a[…]l his tale / and that the man sawe full well / and therfore wynked of theym. But I shall br[…]nge theym in agayne here, and repe[…]e theym for hym. Lo good readers in y•.xlvi. chapiter fo. 253. after h[…]s w[…]rdes rehersed at length, thus I […] myne owne.

I[…] thys processe lo good readers this pacyfyer declareth, that he wold haue the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle so specyally loke vppon thys mater, that neyther innocentes sholde be punyshed, nor yet wylfull offenders go wythoute dewe correccyon[…] who could ende and cōclude all hys mater more frutefully.

But now the specyall ways wherby he dyuyseth, that the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle sholde bryng this thynge about be twayne.

The tone is, yf they prouyde that neyther men that be proude nor couetouse, nor haue any loue to the worlde, be suffred to be iudges in any cause of h[…]resye.

The tother ys, that the byshoppes shall arreste no man for heresye, tyll the desyre that spyrytuall men haue to cause men abiure heresyes, and to punyshe theym for heresyee, be ceased and gone.

And surely I thynke that his two dyuyses wyll serue suffycyently for the tone parte / that ys to wytte that none innocentes shall be punyshed. But I fere me very sore, that they wyll not serue halfe so suffycyently for the tother parte, that ys to wytte that wylfull offendours go not with oute correccyon.

For now to begynne with his fyrst dyuyse, that none be suffred to be iudges in cause of heresye, yt are proude or couetouse, or haue loue to ye world yf he meane of suche as haue none of these affeccyons wyth notable enormyte, then tyll he proue theym that are all redy worse thenne he proueth them yet / that is to saye tyll he proue yt otherwyse by some of theyre outragyouse dedes in the dealynge and myshandelyuge of men for heresy, yt he here defameth them of, thē he hath yet proued, and that he proue theyre cruell wrongful dealynge, otherwyse then by somesayes, or by hys owne sayenge: the kynges hyghnes & hys counsayle can se for all hys holesome counsayle, no cause to chaunge those iudges that are all redy, but to leue them styll / and them serueth that dyuyse of nought.

And on the other syde, yf he meane that the kynges hyghnesse shal suffer none to be iudges in cause of heresye that hath any spyce at all, eyther of pryde, or of couetyse, or any loue at all vnto thys worlde: heretykes may syt styll and make mery for a lytle season, whyle men walke about and seke for such iuges. For yt wyl not be lesse then one whole wekes worke I wene both to finde such, and to be sure that they be suche.

Here haue you herd good reders a resonable cause why that I sholde take hym that he wolde haue the spyrytuall iuges, such as shold haue no spice of pride couetouse nor worldly loue. For either he must meane so / or elles (as I sayde) he must meane on the tother maner which I reherse fyrste, and whych he wold now seme to mean. But then (as I haue sayd) yf he ment in the fyrst fashyon as he wolde now seme: all his tale is ouer turned. For then hadde he no cause of any suche complaynte. For he n[…]yther hadde hym selfe when he wrote nor any man elles, preued by any of theym the contrary. And then neded he not to spende oute hys profounde wysedome, in makynge suche exhortacyons to the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle, to se with so great dilygence (as though they had be so long neglygent) to the thyng that him self could not say nay, but yt it was metely well ynough all redy. And thus you se good reders that he lefte oute and dissembled that fyrst part of my wordes, bycause he wys[…]e nere what to saye therto. And therfore syth, except he mēt in the fyrst maner (which he could not do without the marryng of all his mater) you se well that him self droue me to thynke, that he wold haue the kynges grace and his counsayle, se dylygently that there shold be no spyrituall iudgꝭ, but they yt had no spice of pryde, couetise, or worldly loue at all. And then myghte heretyques as I sayd (whyle suche iudges were in sekynge) make mery for a lytle whyle. And I kepte my selfe metely well wythin my boundes. For where I sayde yt wolde be a wekes worke to seke theym: I wene yt wold he fourtenyght ful ere we founde them.

But then gooth he farther somewhat aboute to shewe, that I haue mysse handeled his wordes, & wyth ioynynge myne owne vnto his, haue made yt seme that he sayeth myche worse by the spyrytualtye then he eyther sayde or ment. But when you haue herde all hys tale and myne to, you shall well se good readers that he shall neuer whyle he lyueth conuey this gere so clene. For these are fyrste his wordes here.

And he sayeth / that yt wyll be the more harde to […]ynde suche iuges. For he sayth, that I haue putte that mater oute of doute / that where no men wol[…]e haue wende […]oneste to haue founde theym, that there I saye / yt wyll be meruaylouse harde to […]ynde any one of theym / eyther prelates, seculere prestes or relygyouse persons. For he saythe that I saye playnely / that haue they neuer so many vertues besyde / that yet I saye, yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man / but that he ys so infected wyth desyre and affeccyon to haue the worldely honour of prestes exalted / that he is thorough suche pryde farre fro suche indyfferency and equytye, as oughte and muste be in suche iudges / whych as he saythe, I assygne to be suche, that they muste haue no spyce of pryde couetyse nor lo[…]e towarde the worlde.

As to thys laste rehersed sentence of master More this is ye trouth therin / I say in an other place of the sayde treatyse, other then that / that mayster More hath rehersed here / that is to say, in the.vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse, that though many spyrytuall men maye be founde, that haue many grea[…] […]ertues, and great gyftes of god / as chastyte, lyberalytye, pa[…]yence, […]obernesse, temperaunce connynge and suche other: yet yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man that ye not infecte wyth the sayde desyre and affeccyon / to haue the worldely honour of pres[…]ye axalted. And there my sentence endeth, as to thys purpose. But then as yt appereth before, mays[…]er More in hys sayde Apologye addeth immedyatly to those wordes of myne, wordes of his own puttynge in / whyche be these: That he ye through such pride ferre fro such indifferēce and equyte / as ought & muste be in the iuges, whyche he sayth I assygne. And he combyneth tho wordes to myne / in suche maner as though I spake theym my selfe. So that they that shall rede theym, can none otherwyse take theym, but as my wordes: wherby he perue[…]teh clerely my meanynge and my sentence therin. For my sentēce, ne yet my meanyng therein / is not but that iudges spyrytuall maye haue some spyce of pride couetyse and worldly loue, and yet be meate iudges in heresye / as the frayltye of mā suffereth. For we be no angelles but synners, that lyghtlye may fall and be deceyued. Ne I meane not, ne yet my worde[…] amount not to yt, but that a man may haue a desyre and affeccion / to haue the worldly honour of prestes exalted / and yet be a mete iudge in heresye. For I suppose / that a man may haue that desyre in some degree, and to some entent / and not offende therin / specyally dedely. How be yt he may also lyghtly offende therin, yf he be not ryght well ware.

If thys good man her saye trew in these aforesayde wordes of hys And there my sentence endeth as to this purpose: then am I content to confesse, that he sayth well, and I wronge. But on the tother syde nowe, yf he saye not trewe, hut that in the defamynge and slaunderynge of the spyrytualty, his sentence ended not there, but wen[…]e there myche farther forth, and so far forthe also / as amounted vnto as myche as I saye that he sayde, & vnto myche more to: then wyll euery man bere me recorde, that I mysse reporte not hym but he me.

Now shall you good reders sone se thys tryed bytwene vs. For hys whole wordis as they lye there to gether, I shall nowe reherse you here. Lo these they be as you shall fynde them bothe in hys boke of dyuysyon, and in myne Apologye fo. 237.

And though many spyrytuall men m[…]y be founde, that haue ryghte many great vertues and great gyftes of god, as chastyte, lyberalytye, pacyence sobe[…] nesse, temperaunce, connynge, and suche other / yet yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall mā that is not infecte wyth the sayde desyre and affeccyon to haue the worldely honour of prestys exalted and prefe[…]red / & therfore yf any lay man reporte any euyll of a pres[…]e / though yt be openly knowen that yt is as he sayeth / yet they wyll be more dylygent to cause the laye man to cease of that sayenge / then to do that in them is to reforme that is a mysse in the preste that it is spoken of / takyng as if were an occasyon to do the lesse in suche […]eformacyons / bycause laye men speke so myche agaynst theym: But surely that wyl be none excuse to spyrytual rulers afore god / when he shall aske accompt of hys people / that were commytted vnto theyr kepynge.

Now you se good reders, how vntrew it ys yt this man telleth you. For here you se yt his sentence leueth not where he sayth yt lefte as to that purpose: but you se that yt goeth forth farther aboute that purpose styll, to shewe that it wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man iuste & indyfferent, but that the desyre and affeccyō to haue ye worldly honour of prestes exalted and preferred, hath so farre infected them, that yf a lay mā reporte any euyll of a preste, though it be opēly knowen yt it is as he sayth, yet they wyl not onely rather put the lay man to sylence, then any thynge amende the preste: but that they will also do the lesse to the amendment of ye preste, because the lay men speketh of yt. whyche affeccyon can not be but a very proude dampnable frowardnesse.

And therfore whyle this good pacifyer there sayth, that all the prestes be so farre infecte wyth such a proud damnable desyre of theyre wordely exaltacyon, that yt wylbe harde to fynde any one of them any other. And then a lytle byfore those wordes (as you may se in hys sayde chapyter in myn apologye fo. 235. he sayth vnder the fygure of a great rumour amonge the peple / that spyrytuall mē punyshe heresyes rather to oppresse them that speke any thynke agaynste theyre worldely honour and rychesse &c: then for zele of the fayth: these wordꝭ of his beyng there such, iudge nowe good reader whether I might not well say yt this good man saiyh it wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man, but that he is so infected with the desyre and affeccyon to haue the wordely honour of prestes exalted, that he is thorough suche pryde farre fro such indifferēcye & equyte, as oughte and mus[…]e be in suche iudges as him selfe assygneth to be such as they muste haue no spyce of pryde couetyse or loue toward the worlde. I am very sure yt hys wordes mayntayne myne and more to.

Naye (sayth he) for I do not meane that they shold haue no spyce therof. For they may haue some spice therof: and yet maye be iudges in heresye well Inough. For they may haue that desyre in some degree and some entente, and not offende therin, specyally dedely.

But I haue agaynste yt proued afore that he muste meane so: or ellys muste haue lefte hys tale vntolde. Fo yf he ment to be contente wyth folke of meane condycyons wythoute notable enormyties, suche they were all redy, and then had his great exhortacyon lytle place.

Also this pryde with whyche hys wordes saye that they be all so sore infected, that it wylbe very harde to fynde any one other / is a very pestylent pryde / and in an hygh degre, and suche as he coulde not well deuyse a more dedely dyffamacyon of the hole spyrytualtye / than those wordes be, whyche yf they were trew (as they be false) playnely proued, that in all the hole clergy it were hard to fynde any one good honest man, or me[…]e to be a iudge, eyther in heresye or in any thynge ellys. And so wold he by this deuyce of his, take awaye as I sayd frome examynacyon of heresye, all the spyrytuall iudges, and leue them none at all.

And yet good readers to thende that you maye the better perceyue, what those wordꝭ of this man amoūt vnto / whyche he wolde make you wene here that I both mysse reherse and myssecōs[…]re: wouch saufe to rede my wordes that I wryte vpon them in myne apologye folio. 238.

But now this good pacyfyer perceyuynge, that it wylbe harde to bere it, but that his wordes clerely take away fro the clergye, all suche indyferency and iustyce, as hym selfe assygneth to be requyred of necessyte, in euery man that shold be suffred to be iudge in heresy / he falleth to another shyfte to saue the mater vpryght. And therin thus he sayth.

And farthermore though it were […] mayster More taketh it to be / that my wordes shuld sounde to that effect that the iu[…]es yt were thē were, through such pryde farre fro the indyfferencye and equytye that I assygne: yet that proueth not / but that they be now indyfferent and ryghtwyse. For they myght syth the ma[…]ynge of the sayde treatyse, bycome through grace, indyfferent, ryghtwyse, meke, lyberall, and louynge to god and theyr neyghbour / though they were not so then. And yf they be, so then heretyke[…] shall not make mery for lacke of iudges a weke ne yet a daye. For the same iudges may sit styll wythout chaungynge / to here and e[…]amyn theym whan nede shalbe. Thus as me semeth, it appereth euery waye / yt the excepcyō that mayster More taketh of […]haūgyng of spyrytuall iuges is but of smal effecte.

This reasō hath so some s[…]tylty: but it hath no substaunce. For yf they were all so noughty so late, as this good man saith they were, it wyl be but hardely byleued, that so many of them, vppon so shorte a sermon of this poore precher, sholde be so well chaūged so soone, but that as I said, theretykes were well lyke, yet one weke lenger to make mery, before men myghte haue so sure experyence as to put theym so sone in truste to be iudges in heresye, whom thys pacyfyer hadde perswaded to be so farre vnmete for the mater so late. And therfore it appereth euery waye that thys good mannys inuencyon is towarde euyll of very great / towarde good of very small effecte.

Than goth he forth on with the mater and thus he sayth.

Then sayth mayster More ferther that yf some say […]e no suffycyent profe / then is my tale all l[…]st. And to these wordes I wyll answere thus. I wyll agree that my sayenge that some saye thys or thys / is no profe / neyther to proue that some saye so / ne yet to proue that it is so. For in euery profe must be two wytnesse at the leste. But yf two wyll saye it is so […] then it is a proffe.

And surely yf mayster More wyll inquere for the truth in thys mater, he shall fynde that there be many mo then two that say so. And veryly yf many m[…]n saye so[…] though the tre[…]th be not so, yet the ta[…]e i[…] not all loste to say that some men say so. For then it shall put the byshoppe[…] and rusers spyrytuall in mynde, that they are bounde in conscience to helpe them that saye so all that they can[…] fro the daunger that they ronne in by that sayeng. And yf it be true, then may the spyrytuall rulers order the mater as they shall se cause, and reforme it in suche chary[…]ab[…]e maner that none shall say so hereafter: but they wyll of malyce do it, and renne into the slander of the Pharyseis: and that wolde charytably be examyned, whether it be so or not.

Thys is a prety pyece, and suche as I haue seldome sene ye lyke, come out of any wyse mannys mouth. For though that in iugement, men muste presume a thynge is trewe, whyche two good honest persons sworē and examyned depose and testyfye, that themself haue sene the dede, or herde the wordes spoken, by the mouth of the person whyche for suche dede or sayenge is accused: yet sayth no man for all that / that bycause two men say it and swere it to, therfore it is so. For as to the necessary consequence of the dede / this argument is very faynt that thys man maketh. Two men saye it is so, ergo it is so.

Than vpon thys argument such as you se, he sendeth me to inquere and than I shall he sayth fynde, that there be many mo than two that saye so. That maye well happe now, by occasyon of his boke of dyuysyon. But what yf I enquered of them. that I shold happe to fynd not onely many mo thā two, but also many mo than two hundred, that wold say that the spyrytuall men for such euyll affeccyons as this good pacyfyer surmyseth, haue great desyre to abiure men or note theym of heresye: y[…]t whyse all they coulde amonge them all ley no profe at all / but alway the trouth proued contrary, both by that, that in farre the moste parte of thys realme, and take Walys therto, there haue not ben before his boke of diuysion, fiue men abiured in fiftene yere. And in those that haue bene / rigour hath not ben vsed more thā necessary: but there hath ben vsed more than necessary fauour / & that this hath ben alredy proued ofter than ones, before the kynges honorable counsayle, I wold not esteme the bablyng of two hūdred, no not though they were two thousand, & yet many mo to, the moū tenaūce of.ii. strawes / for any thyng that I wold regard any good man yt wurse. But I wold for theyr owne partes be sore ashamed to here them, & clerely perceyuynge yt they so lewdely lyed: I wolde be sore ashamed to tell the tale agayn after them. And this I say yf I sholde with inquery thus happe to fynde, as I veryly trust I shold not yf I dyd enquere.

But now his Some say beynge so false as it is, it is a world yet to se what a founde shyfte he fyndeth, that he wolde not yet by hys wyll haue that lye loste. For he sayth, that though the tre[…]th be not so, yet the tale is not loste to say that some men say so. For (he saith that) then it shall put the byshoppes and spyrytuall rulers in mynde, that they are bounde in conscience to helpe theym that saye so all that they can, fro the daungeour that they ronne in by so sayeng.

What good I praye you can thys false Some saye do? For what can ye spyrytuall men do for theyr helpe yt so bylye them? any other thā aduise them to leue suche lyeing? And that had ben a better parte for thys good pacyfyer to haue played hym selfe, & so to haue told them vpō whose tale he wrote it: thā to ye reproch & rebuke of so many good worshypfull men make a boke of diuisyō, & therin write euery lewde worde, that any lewde folke, or any false shrewes wolde tell hym. Whose euyll tonges the spyrytualtye can neuer appease: but yf to please thē they sholde dysplease god / and without lettynge heresyes growe and go forth, shold them selfe rather do euyll than let lewde folke speke euyll.

And now to thentent good reders that you may the more clerely se, to how lytell purpose the pacifyer hath in thys poynt answered me / ye shall vnderstande that my wordes in myn apology whiche he wold seme to answere well here, were these. fo. 257.

But yet is thys pacyfyer not so fauourable towarde folke suspected of heresye, as to take away the power of the byshoppe for euer, of arrestynge them, and to dryue the ordynaryes for euer to sue cytacyons agaynst heretykes and processe of excommunicacyon / but wyll haue he sayeth the bysshoppes power of arrestynge no lenger suspended, thanne as longe as spyrytuall menne haue that great desyre to cause menne abiure or to haue theym punysshed for heresye / as though he hadde well proued that they haue so, bycause he sayeth that some men say so.

But now yf Some say be no sufficyent profe / than is hys tale lost. For than he sheweth no cause why that power of theyrs sholde in any case be more suspēded now, than in any time here before. And on the tother syde, yf some say be a good profe / than the […]uspendynge wyll be as longe as a depryuynge for euer, syth there shall neuer be any tyme in whyche there shall lacke one or other some saye to saye more than trouth.

Lo good readers here you se, that vnto the secunde parte of these wordes of myne, he answereth nothynge at all. And than haue you sene before that vnto the fyrste, hys answere is so feble, that it had ben better for him to haue done therwyth as he dothe wyth the tother, leue it vnanswered to.

But nowe goeth he ferther and saith, Then sayth mayster More yet ferther, that which is a lyghte suspycyon and whyche is a heuy, and whyche wytnes be suffycyent, and whych not, must be weyed by the spyrytuall iudges, and vppon theyr weyinge of the mater for lyght or heuy, to folowe the arrest of the party, or the leuynge of the arrest. Now veryly in thys poynt me thynketh that may […]er More maketh a ryght good mocyon, that is to saye, that the mater shulde be examyned before the arreste. For it hath ben sayd in tymes paste, that in suche ca[…]e the arrest hath many tymes gone before the examynacion. Neuerthelesse vnder what maner the examynacyon and the arrest shulde be made in suche case, I wyll make no deuyse at this tyme: For happely mayster More wold anone fynde a defawt at it, and therfore I wyll leane it to them that haue auctoryte, to treate ferther of it, and to dyuyse how to auoyde the mase that mayster More speketh of in hys sayd.xlvi. chapyter.

Now good readers this man maketh here, as though I hadde geuen hym in my wordes, some greate aduauntage to groūde some great mater vppon. And therfore I shall reherse you what my wordꝭ were, that your selfe maye se how sore I ouersaw my selfe therin, and what he meneth by the mase that he nameth here These are lo my wordes in myne apologye fo. 257.

yet is he content at the laste, leste euery man myghte spye the perell of hys deuyce, to temper hys deuyce in suche wyse, that tyll the spyrytualty haue lefte theyr cruell desyre of abiurynge and punysshynge folke for heresye, they sholde not be suffred to arreste folke for euery light suspycyon, or euery complaynt of heresye. How be it he graunteth that where one is openly and notably suspected of heresye, and suffycyēt recorde and wytnes agaynst hym, & bysydes all that, a dowte that he wolde fle wherby he myghte enfecte other: than he graū teth it conuenyent that he shold be arrested by the body. And therin he bryngeth in the Clementine and the statute, by whcih the ordinaries haue power to arrest fol[…]e for suspycyon of heresye / and wold as farre as I perceyue, haue the kynge reforme them after hys deuyce. But yet syth whych is a lyght suspycyō, and whych is an heuy / and whych is a lyght cōplaynt, and whych is an heuy / and whych is an open suspycyon, and whyche but a preuy, and whyche suspycyon ys notable, and whyche is not notable, and whyche wytnesses be suffycyent, and which be not suffycyent, be thynges that must be wayed by the spyrytuall iudges / and vppon theyr way […]nge of the mater for lyght or heuy, muste folowe the arrestynge of the party or the leuynge of the arreste: we be come agayne as in a mase to the poynt where we beganne, that be the mater greate or smale, lest all the whyle they be cruell they shold iudge lyghte heuy and smale greate, theyr arrestynge of any at all muste be susspended fro them, and sende them to sue by cytacyon, tyll men se that same mynde of theyrs of desyryng mennes abiuracyon and punysshement vtterly chaunged and ceace / that is to say tyll there be no man lefte that wyll so mysche as saye, that some men saye that they haue not lefte that mynde yet, and make a lye agayne of theym than, as those some haue done that haue so sayde all redy to syr Iohn̄ some say now. And longe wyll it be I warraunt you ere euer all suche folke fayle.

And therfore syth in the mean season by thys pacyfyers good deuyse, here[…]tykes maye go vnarrested / I can not byleue that yf his way were folowed, it wold be any good meane to make that wylful offenders in heresy shold not passe vnpunysshed, as faste as bothe in the ende of thys chapyter & the tother before also, he calleth vpō the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle and hys parleament, to loke vppon thys mater after his good aduertysement, and neuer ceace tyll they brynge it to effecte.

Here you se good readers, bycause thys man wyth hys deuyces bryngeth hym selfe into a mase, out of whyche he can not se how to gete, he wold now set other folke to study there about. And wolde make theym very carefull, aboute a thynge lytle nedefull. For it hath well appered, & well ben proued to, that the spyritual iuges haue yet hytherto in arrestyng for heresy, ryght well examyned and considered, fyrst bothe the cause, and the necessyte, & haue ben rather therin many tymes to slow / than any tyme ouer hasty. And therfore I maye and wyll say here agayn as I sayd there, that I lytell dowte but that yf the kynges hyghnes do as I dowte not but his hyghnes wyll do, maynteyne and assyste the spyrytualty in executyng of the lawes, euyn those yt are all redy made agaynst heresyes / & cō maunde euery tēporall officer vnder hym to do ye same for his part: though ther were neuer mo new laues made therfore, yet shall both innocentes be saued harmelesse well inough, & offendours punyshed to. To thys cō meth forth this good mā in this wise.

Now veryly to those wordes of mayster More I dare say thus, that mayster More or he had spoken tho wordes, had occasyon by reasonable coniecture to haue doubted more at the mater thenne he hath done, and to haue thought it very lyke, that yf the same lawes shulde s[…]onde as do nowe in euery poynt concernynge heresye, that many innocentes that be not gylty, myghte vppon suspeccyon of heresy be dryuen to pourge theym selfe, after the wyll of the ordynarye, and yet be not gylty[…] ye and ouer that mayster More myghte haue reasonably doubted, & as I suppose in consciēce he ought to haue doubted more then he hath done, that somtyme innocente[…] myghte happen vppon the suyte Ex officio, or vppon lyght complayntes by fauour of offycers, or […]ppon malyce or dyspleasure, be arrested before examinacyon, and yet mayster More hym selfe assenteth, that the examynacyon shulde be before the arreste. And he myghte haue doubted also, that some innocentes myght by suche periured persons, as be aboue rehersed in thys chapyter be somtyme condempned. And therfore the sayde wordes of mayster More wherby he taketh vppon hym to saye, as it were in hys owne auctoryte to performe it, that innocentes by the same lawes as be all redy made for heresye, shalbe saued harme lesse well inough, myght happē to be of small effect to helpe an innocent man or woman that shulde happen to be wrongfully troubled in tyme to come agaynst hys wordes before rehersed

Now verily to all these wordꝭ of this good mā, I dare say thus, that I whā I wrote the wordꝭ had & yet haue very good cōiecturs to put litle dowt therin. For though I myghte thynke yt this harme and this harme myghte happe: yet syth I haue well sene it proued, yt the spyritual iudges haue vsed thē self ī these maters, not onely so truly, but ouer yt also so fauorably / yt no mā can ꝓue in this realm suche harmes to haue happed yet / but where as such thynges haue ben of late surmysed, the trouth hath ben well proued contrary byfore the kyng[…]s honorable counsayle / I had and haue very good cause to thynke, that as they haue done well hytherto, so shall they well do hereafter.

And syth all thys good mannes grownd is no more, to take away wel approued lawes with, but ye harme maye happe sometyme, to some good man therby, whyche reason he maye make agaynst the beste lawe that all the worlde can make: I dare be bold to warraunt, that that colde reason so feruentely sette forthe in suche a weyghty mater, is not well worthe a ryshe.

And yf men wolde go aboute to chaūge these old long proued lawes: I wolde as my duyte is, praye god geue them ye grace to make the chaū ges good / but for that lytle wyt that I haue, I veryly byleue and thynke that […]f any chaunges be made rather more slacke then streighter: then shal the chaunges be made rather farre worse then better. And thus ende I good readers this good mannys xvii. chapyter.