The.xviii. chapyter

HIs.xviii. chapyter begynneth, fo. lxix. Wherin he begīneth first wyth the ca. vt inquisitionis negocium & li. vi. wherby yt appereth, that all lordes and rulers temporall, be prohyhyted that […]ey shall not in any maner take know[…]edge or iuge vppon heresye. And vp[…]on this hym self addeth vnto it in hi[…] […]oke of dyuysyon, that he y• enquyret[…] of heresy, taketh knoweledge of her[…]y, and yt him selfe sayth not so alone, but that Summa Rosella sayth so to. And hereuppon he concludeth, that yt sholde seme, that all the iustyces of the peace be excommunycate, and al stewardes in letys, & all enquestes to, as many as medle wyth all. For whether in letys they may or not, that he sayth he dowteth, but he sayth yt I say they may, but he telleth not where I say so, nor as I veryly thynke he neuer founde yt in any boke of myne. I saye in myne apologye, fo. 227. that in euery lete they do so, whyther they lawfully so maye do or not thereof speke I nothynge / all be yt I thynke they may well ynough, bothe wythout offence of the kynges lawe, or parell of c[…]rsynge eyther.

For I lytle doute, but that […]here were of the clergye at the m[…]kynge of the statute mo men then […]e, yt vnderstode Summa Rosel[…], as well as thys good man doth, yf Summa Rosella were then made and in mennys handes.

And I doute not also as lytle, but yt there were at those days in the clergye mo then one, that were of counsayle in the makynge of the statute, that vnderstode the chapyter vt inquisitionis, as wel as this mam doth, and as well as he that made Sūma Rosella to. And that they well vnderstode that the sayde chapyter ment of suche inquysytours, and suche inquysycyons, as they make that are in the corps of the lawe called Inquisitores heretice prauitatis / of whyche there are in some places specyall offycers to enquyre, procede, and do therin as thordynaryes do: and ment not of such inquyrours and suche inquysycyons, as do none other wise inquyre, but onely by way of informacyon to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes knowledge.

For as for the minour of this good mannys argumēt, that he that enqnyreth of heresye, taketh knowledge of heresye, so dothe euery denouncer, euery accuser, and in a maner euery wytnesse to, take vppon theym knowledge of heresye in some maner wise: for they take vppon theym as they well maye that thys thynge or that thynge is heresye. But thys is not the knowlege that the law forbede[…]h: but the knowledge that we call holdynge ple vpon yt, whyche our inquysycyons do not: but onely serue to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes handes, whyche ellys sholde peraduenture not haue herde therof.

And for thys cause, to be sure that by these inquysycyons no man shold fall in daunger of any examynacyon yt was substancially prouyded in the sayde statute, yt thynquistcyō and the endyghtemēt of heresye, shold serue the ordynarye nothynge to the procedynge in the mater: but that he shold begynne hys processe agaynste the partye a freshe, wythoute layenge that endyghtement vnto hys charge.

And therfore where as this good man, by the hygh authorite of Sūma Rosella denounceth here al the iustyces of peace accursed. I dare be bold by the hyghe authoryte of Summa Angelica to denounce them all assoyled agayne. And therfore where as this good man wenynge that he had well wonne hys spurrys in thys poynte tryumpheth vppon me and say[…]th.

And to thy[…] lawe mayster More an[…]wereth not, But passeth yt […]uer, as a thynge that […] yt semeth he lyt[…]e regardeth / but onely that he sayth, that the lawes of thys realme, and of holy chyrche in heresyes maye well stande to gether, for oughte that he seeth: And yet yt appereth, that vppon thys lawe they do not agree nor stande to gether. And therfore me thynketh yt wol[…]e not be so lyghtly passed […]ue[…] as mayster More doth passe yt ouer. For yt is a dangerous thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche.

There were two causes for whyche I answered hym not / one a generall cause, concernynge all hys maters of lawes of the chyrche, wherin he fyndeth fautes, of whych I shall speke afterwarde. A nother specyall cause there was concernynge thys excōmunycacyon. And that was that me thought & yet thinke, that he spake therin so chyldyshely that I was a shamed on his byhalfe to medle with yt / and to make open hys chyldyshe handlynge therof.

But nowe syth I se hym compte for so great a conqueste, that he put me to sylence therin, what purpose can he dyuyse for whyche I sholde haue answered any thynge to that poynt? had I made any professyon to proue euery worde wronge that he sayd in all hys hoke? he knoweth that I sayde not that I wolde medle, but wyth those certayne thynges that I there speke of.

But now suppose that there were in that law such faute as he allegeth what could myne answere amēde the mater, or his boke of diuisyon either? If men were accursed as he mysse taketh it, could my boke or his boke take away the curse? No, but we may put the parlyament in mynde to make a lawe. His boke alone is as able to put theym in remembraunce therof as hys and myne to gether. And yet for that poynte neyther nedeth myne nor hys neyther. For the parlyament hath made all redy a lawe for these inquysycyons. Whych yf thy myght lawfully make in such forme as they haue (as I am sure they myght) thē am I sure yt they fall not in excōmunycacyon for it. Now if they myghte not laufully make it, & therby fel ther in, what could the parlyamēt farther adde vnto it, that might deliuer them of yt? And therfore I can not in good fayth se to what purpose he wrote of that poynte hym selfe.

No but thys lawe is one great cause of dyuisyon betwene the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye. That wolde I very fayne wyt howe. For temporall men be not I wote well so farre ouersene, as to be angry wyth the spyrytual men here now, for that lawe that a pope made at Rome ere they were borne. And the spyrytuall men haue also as lytle cause agayn of any grudge agaynst the temporaltye for the mater. And therfore why he sholde put yt in hys boke of dyuysyon, for a cause of diuisyon I can dyuyse no reason. Foras for that, that he wolde shold seme a cause here, is to vnresonable where he sayth.

As long a[…] that law siddeth so vnrepelled / s[…]me prestes that se yt, wyll saye that they that do agaynste yt / be accursed: and so may lyghtly fall the[…]by into a wrongfull and vntr[…]w iudgement / whych though yt be no great offence, oneles yt be of pryde / by dyspysynge of the temporall power in that behalfe, yet yt wolde be eschewed. And also yf they that be so noysed to be accursed / here of yt, they wyll be dyscō tented. And so grudges and varya[…]nces maye ryse and encrease by occasyon of yt.

Thys is a very colde tale, & as dede as euer was dore nayle. For before hym selfe broughte in thys babelynge of his owne about that lawe / (whych babelyng is yet) as I haue shewed you) to no purpose at all) I neuer herd any mā talke any such worde of that lawe in my dayes, nor in good fayeth no more I wene dyd he neyther.

Nor I dare saye he hereth no where yet any prestes saye, that the iustyces of the peace be accursed for enquyrynge agaynste heresyes / none I dare saye but suche prestes as be heretyques. And therfore thys whole tale of his, saue for the malice that yt meaneth / ys euyn a very try […]lynge.

For as for ye mocyō yt he maketh so often to haue that lawe repelled, bycause yt is he sayth agaynst the lawes of the realme: excepte he mokke I wote nere what he meaneth. For yf the realme here may repell yt: thē by yt the law is here made to the cōtrarye (yf yt were contrary as yt is not) yt is repelled all redy. And yf he thynke that the realme here can not re[…]ell yt / thenne wereto wryteth he and prenteth that pyece in his boke of dyuysyon, as a thynge for whyche the temporaltye & the spyrytualty of thys realme sholde fall in varyau[…]ce for, where neyther the makynge nor the repellynge lyeth in neyther nother of theyr handes.

But surely the repellyng though yt be the thyng that is spokē of, is not yet the thynge yt ys ment in thys mater as yt aypereth in these wordes.

And therfore me thynketh yt wolde not be so lyghtly pa[…]sed ouer as mayster More doth passe yt ouer. For yt is a daungero[…]s thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche. And yf yt be sayde, that the sayde lawe ys voyde, bycause the chyrche hadde no authoryte to make yt: And that yt is therfore not to be fered. And I wyll yet say therto, that though yt were voyde / that yet as longe yt standeth so not repelled, yt were good to eschewe it, and not to fal wylfully into the daūger of yt: and therfore yt were better to repelle yt then to lette yt stande styll, and rather do hurte then good.

Here you may se good readers, that where as otherwyse to repell that law then it is repelled, lyeth not in oure handes yf oure lawe were agaynste yt / and where as of […]routhe yt nedeth no repellynge at all, but the lawe of the realme standeth ther wyth well ynough, he maketh as though al […]he iustyces of pea[…]e were accursed there by, as ofte as they geue the iuryes in charge to enquyre of heresye: therfore leste they sholde wylfully fal into the censures of the chyrhe, wherof as he sayth the leste is a daūgerouse thyng, ye may playnly se that these wyly shrewes whych abuse his labour, meane in all thys mater nothynge ellys, but that they wolde not haue heresyes enquyred of. And yet they nede not so greatly to care therfore, for any great thingꝭ yt by such inquisyciōs are in heresyes presented. But yet thus declare they theyr good wylles these wyly shrewes yt thus deceyue this good symple soule, & set hym so euyll a worke.

If he fere so myche ye cēsures of […]h[…] chyrche as he maketh for, and vnd[…]rstande and byleue Summa Rosella so surely as he pretendyth: yt hadde ben better for hym to examyne well hys boke of dyuysyon, and thys his seconde boke also by the tytles of Summa Rosella, and se well why ther hym selfe varye not fro Sūma Rosella, & be by ye sentēce of Sūma Rosella fallen in the censures of the chyrche hym selfe, by some such maner of wrytynge as hys sayde bokes haue.

But now cometh this good pacifi […]r forthe wyth a goodly pyece & to declare hym selfe indyfferent, and to shewe also a great ouersyght vsed vppon my parte: thus the good man Some say sayth.

And therfore yt semeth ryght expedyent that the sayd law be repelled. And in lyke wyse it were good to repelle all suche lawes spyrytuall, as be made cō trarye to the kynges lawes and the custome of the realme. And yf yt be sayde, that yt were good also / that suche statutes and lawes / as be made and vsed by the temporall power to the grefe of the people were also reformed / and that yf I were indyfferente / I wolde make some mocyon so to h[…]u[…] yt: And so it semeth maysier More doth parte[…] […] that I ought to haue done, & to haue founde […] defaute in the temporall lawe as in the spyry[…]ll lawe: How be yt bycause be wolde beare n[…] […] of the temporall lawe in that mocyon, yt s[…]m[…]th that he somwhat mytygateth hys sentence […] and sayeth / that yf I do so / and that then I […] theym / that ys saye, the temporall lawes and […]ynde defautes at them / as trewly as I do at these[…] that is to saye at the spyrytuall lawes: that then I shulde make two lyes for one / and yet as I suppose, I haue assigned some defautes in the spyrytuall lawe, whyche mayster More can not tell howe they shul[…] […]e excused.

As to hys repellynge, I se as I haue sayde no substaunce in hys wordes. For we repell theym as farre as I se we can, when we kepe theym not but make our owne lawes to the cōtrary. And therfore as farre as I se all that he speketh of these repellynges, saue onely for settynge forth of his dyuysyon, is ellys but a very vayne tale.

But nowe where he sayeth that I wolde haue hym and seme to moue hym / to fynde fautes in the temporall lawe to. I wote nere whether his word[…] haue herein more falsed or more foly / but surely they haue both twayn, and eyther the tone or the tother double.

For fyrste euery man maye se by his owne wordes euen here, that I moue hym not to vse as for indyffer[…]ncye, to fynde fautes in the temporall lawes as he hath done wyth the spyrytuall lawes, when hym selfe here sheweth that I saye that yf he so dyd, he sholde make double lyes. This sheweth that he vseth in thys saynge playne and open vntrouthe. And syth hys owne vntrouthe appereth vppon hys owne shewynge, thys sheweth also, that he vseth open foly.

And where he sayeth that he hath assygned some defautes in the spyrytuall lawes, which I can not tel how they sholde be excused: I answere hym agayne, that vnto all lawes, or all maters that he lyste to bable of, am I not bounde to medle wyth / but of these spyrytuall […] lawes that were made for the repressyng of heresyes, wyth whyche oure temporall lawes are also conformable and concurraūt wyth whyche […] thys good wyse man for the ease of heretyques, hath now founden suche fautes as a wyse man maye be ashamed to speke of, I haue clerely declared that they nede not to be excused / but that for the fyndynge of suche fautes hys foly to be myche accused. Thys haue I proued so playne, that he can fynde no great cause of glorye when he lokath backe vppon yt.

But nowe to thentent you maye good readers se, that eyther this man is not so symple in hym selfe as he semeth, or els that some wyly shrewes shamefully do deceyue hym: I beseche you consyder a lytle eyther the foly or the crafte that the man vseth here.

He hathe brought you forth wordes of myne whych I speke he sayth of the lawes, where as of trouthe I speke theym not of the lawes at all, as your selfe shall well se. For though he dyssemble the place bycause he wolde not haue you reade yt: yet haue I soughte yt oute for you, in the.99. lefe of myne Apologye / and there lo these are my wordes.

And thys pacyfyer aggreueth (as myche as in hym lyeth) the clergye of Englande, for vse of the lawes not made by theym selfe, but be commen lawes of all chrystendome.

If he wyll saye that he blameth but theyr abuses therof, the trouth appereth in some place otherwyse in hys boke. And yet syth he proueth that poynte but by a some saye / he myght wyth the same fygure lay lyke fautes in the temporaltye concernynge the lawes of thys realme, and proue yt in lyke wyse wyth a greate Somme say to. And therin he sheweth him self not indyfferent whan he bryngeth in the tone and leueth the tother out. And on the tother syde, yf he brynge in the tother to / than shall he make two fawtes for one. For yf he handle them as truely as he handeleth these / than shall he make two lyes for one

Lo good readers consyder here I bysech you the maner of thys good man. To the fyrst piece of these wordes of myne, in whyche case is also the law that we be now in hand with al, vt inquisitiōis, wherwith he wold in hys boke of dyuysyon aggreue the clergye of this realme whych neuer made the lawe: he answereth not in all his boke one word. And yet in his such maner of aggreuynge he vseth a very synfull, and in hys not answerynge, a very shamfull waye.

Than in the remanaunt you se good readers your self, that I speke not of the lawes. For whan I saye thus, yf he wyll say that he blameth but theyr abuses therof: yet syth he proueth that point but by a Somsay / he myghte by the same fygure laye lyke fawtes in the temporalty to, concernyng the lawes of this realme: is it not here playne that I laye blame in hym, for hys bylying of the mynistres of the spyrytuall lawes vnder a figure of Somsay, as though they abused the spyrytuall lawes in myssehandelynge of heretykes wherof I speke more aft[…]r. And I saye that by a lyke figure of Some say, he might dyffame all the temporall mynis[…]res to, and brynge theym in grudge and obloquy of the peple wyth lyke lyes of abusyng the temporal lawes to.

Now consyder good readers, ey[…]ther how fa[…]sely thys honest man hath hym self, or ellys how folyshly he hath suffered false shrewys, to make hym turne and chaunge the sentence of my wordes fro the men to the lawes, to brynge in his maters vppon, and say that I moue hym to fynde fawtes in the temporal lawes and put them in pr[…]n[…]e abrode as he doth in the tother, wh[…]re as you playnely se I speke not of the lawes but of the mynis[…]res / nor yet aduise hym to vse suche fasshyon wyth the tempora[…]l mynystres neyther, leste he make two lyes for one.

Is not now thys chaunge of my sentence that he maketh here a very shamelesse dealynge, eyther of hym selfe, or of some shrewed counsayle of hys?

And now knytteth he to this handelynge the remanaunt of the sayde.xix. chapyter, and sheweth that he speketh fyrste of the spyrytua[…]tye, bycause the causes of the dyuysyon specyally be growen by theym / and layeth forthe a sorte of gryefes, some parte very tryfles, and some parte remedyed before hys booke of dyuisyon made, and some parte very folyshe, & some part for all hys some sayes vndowtedly very false.

He hath there two leuys in the ende of that chapiter which any wyse man that readeth them, shall I suppose, iudge a very dreamynge tale. And therin it semeth that as he hath bygonne wyth the spyrytuall lawes, so he wyll after procede in the tēporal lawes to. And fayne wold ye man make me so fonde as to be hys felow therin / and saith yf I know any such made, as the perleament had none authoryte to make, or wheruppon the people ha[…]e i[…]ste cause to complayn: it w[…]r[…] we[…] done that I shold shew them. And so he thynketh verily that cher[…]t[…] shold cōpell me to do, seynge that I am he sayth lerned in ye lawes of the realm[…].

Veryly yf I knewe any suche: yet wold I not folow neyther this good mannys holy exhortacyon, nor hys godly sample neyther, to do in ye tone as he hath done in the tother, but yf I lyked hys doynge a lytell better than I do.

And yf I be lerned in the temporall lawes, the lesse wyll I folowe his counsayle. For the better that I were lerned in them the lesse wolde I wene it wold become me, to prent and put abrode amonge the people, a slawnderous boke of them to shame theym.

And vnto this point good readers I haue answered and shewed my mynde in myne apologye byfore, wherto thys man geueth a defe eare alwaye. And here, vppon a soughte occasyon with a fonde wyly chaunge of my wordes, exhorteth me to the thynge to whyche I made answere all redy. And what I before sayde therin, that he dyssembleth, and sayth not one worde therto. But in myne apologye good readers, the.159. lefe these were in this poynt my wordes.

Hys other murmours & grudges that he sayth he can not now reherse, he reherseth after many of thē in his other chapyters / whych I wyll passe ouer vntowched, bothe for that the more parte of them be suche as euery wyse man wyll I suppose answere them hym selfe in the redynge, and satysfye hys owne mynde wythout any nede of myne helpe therin / & for that some thynges are there also therin, that are very well sayed / and some also that be they good or badde, I purpose not to medle myche wythall, as are the thynges yt towche any lawes or statutes all redy made, be they of the chyrche or of the realme, defende them I am cōtent to do, yf I thynke them good. But on the tother syde yf I thinke them nought / albe it that in place & tyme cōuenyent I wold geue myn aduice & coūsaile to the chaūge, yet to putte out bookes in wrytynge abrode amonge the people agaynste theym, that wolde I neyther do my selfe, nor in the so doynge commende any man that doth. For yf the lawe were suche as were so farre agaynste the lawe of god, that it were not possyble to stande wyth mannes saluacyon / than in that case the secrete aduyse and coūsayle may become euery man / but the open reprofe and redargucyon therof may not in my mynd well become those that are no more spyrytuall than I. And sure yf the lawes maye be kepte and obserued without perell of soule, though the chaunge myght be to the better: yet out of tyme & place cōuenyent to put the defawtes of the lawes abrode amonge the people in wrytynge, and wythout any suretye of the chaunge geue the people occasyon to haue the lawes in derysyon, vnder which they lyue, namely syth he yt so shall vse to do, may somtime missetake the mater & thynke the thyng not good wherof ye chaūge wold be worse: y• way wyll I not as thus aduised neither vse my self nor aduise no frend of myne to do And therfore I wyll as I saye leue some thinges of his boke vntouched, whyther he say well or euyll.

Here you se good readers myne answere to thys poynt, concernynge the fyndynge of fawtes and puttyng theym abrode in prente: whiche answere he dyssembleth, & agayne prouoketh me to the same, as though he had neuer herd it / whyche answere I wyll therfore be had as repeted in euery place where he prouoketh me hereafter to the same poynte. And thus you se good reders, that where as he hath not in any one chapyter of hys, brought forth any reason yet: yet hath he brought forth leste in this hys.xviii. in whiche he bosteth moost. For by thys hath he playnely declared, that he neyther vnderstandeth the law vt inquisitionis, that he alledgeth, nor so mych as the pore summe called Summa rosella neyther. For that good man yt made it, vndowtedly neuer ment of suche inquisicions as ours are, of whyche maner he hadde happely neuer knowen none. And as for the law, they very fyrste wordes therof to hym that vnderstondeth them and consydereth them well, suffycyently do declare, that that lawe forbedeth laye men to medyll wyth suche maner knowledge of heresye, as sholde be a let and impedement to the ordynaryes, or other the spyrytuall inquisitours / & not suche knowledge as we take by our inquisicyōs, that onely serue to helpe the toth[…]r forth & bringe ye mater to theyr hādes.

And ther[…]ore syth I se well, that this man in the laten lawes and Sū mes, hath so lytell vnderstandynge: I shall be the more content in his lawes & his Sūmys, so mych the lesse to dyspute or medle wyth hym.