The.xx. chapyter

HIs.xx. chapyter begynnynge in ye lxxvi. lefe, hath so lytle effecte & substaunce in it, and so faintly defendeth his formare mater whyche yt pretendeth to defende, that I puroose to make no longe worke aboute yt.

For yf you rede fyrste his wordes as they lye in mine Apology fo. 159 in the seconde syde begynnynge at these wordes, And here me thynketh I myghte saye: ye shal there good readers fynde, that I reherse those wordꝭ of his euyn whole, wyth those wordes in them, which he wold in the begynnynge of this his.xx. chapyter, make men byleue that I had wythdrawen / as though they were wordes of suche substancyall effect, that I wold not haue it appere in my boke that he had wryten so piththely.

Afterwarde in a nother place where they be rehersed again fo. 162 then prēter of lykelyhed left them out of ouersyght & hast. And surely they be not of so great weyght, but yt if the authour had hym selfe left them out in his boke of dyuysyon, yt had made lytle mater. And yf he had ouer that left out the whole clause: then hadde he lefte in hys boke one lye the lesse, and hys boke the better by so myche. For wherby proueth he that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theym selfe to be so clene and pure, that there ys no defaute in theym, but all in the people alone, and in theym selfe no maner faute at all? Where herde he euer any spyrytuall man saye thys, by the whole spyrytualtye or by any one man therof?

They confesse theym selfe to be men and synners. And they confesse and knowledge also, that the very cause of thys chyefe myschyefe that nowe begynneth to make dyuysyon, that ys to wytte the execrable heresyes, whyche myschyefes thys good mannys euyll dyuyses with chaunge of good lawes were lykely to mayntayne, yf men wolde folowe theym: dyd bothe begynne, and ys also sette forthe & auaunced forward, by those vngracyouse folke that are suche amonge the spyrytualtye, as Iudas was amonge thapostles / & thys not in thys realme onely, but in othe[…] countreys to. As by frere Luther, and preste Pomerane, Otho the monke, and frere Lambert, frere Huskyn, and Swynglius / & here in Englande Tyndale, frere Barns George Ioy, & some other suche, as with the sede of sedycyouse heresye, haue so wen and set forth dyuysyon.

Thys thynge the spyrytualtye bothe knoweth & knowledgeth. And therfore they do not pretende as thys pacifier sayth they do, that there hath ben no faute amonge theym, but all amonge the people. And therfore this good man where he sayeth that I lefte out thre wordes in that clause of his (which yet I did put in indede: hym selfe hadde somwhat amended hys mater with leuyng in of one lye the lesse, yf he had left out the whole clause all to gether.

As to that y• he sayth I chaunged his wordes in ye ende frō these wordꝭ the syghte of grace that ys spoken of before wyll not appere, into […] wordes the syghte of grace tha[…] […] spoken of byfore, be wyth you no[…] and euer more amen: therin he sayeth very trewe. For syth […]e was fallen into preachynge, I not onely in the fyrst place rehersed hym as he spake hym self, but afterward also in the seconde place I toke the payne for hym to mende his colla[…]yon in that poynt, & make yt ende some what more lyke a sermō with a good gracyouse prayour.

Then goeth he forthe, and in the same lefe and the next folowyng, he maketh a suspicyouse mater, and can not tell what mynde I was of, in chaungynge his worde spyrytuall rulers, into this worde prelates. But loke good readers vppon the place, and you shal se that I dyd yt of good cause. For I do not there saye that he sayth prelates, but I saye there that peraduenture he wyll saye so. And also besydes this that there y[…] no very great dyfference betwene these wordes, the prelates and the spirytuall rulers: the chaūge from this worde the spyrytuall rulers into this worde prelates, semed me the more mete and more proper for the mater that the pacifier speketh in that place, where he speketh of au[…]horite yt they pretende, and obedyence that they clayme.

Howe be it rather then I wolde geue any cause of dyuysyon agaynst me, to hym that vseth to make great dyuysyons vpon smale groundes / I shall be content to geue hym his own worde agayne. And therfore I pray you good readers euery of you mēde your bokis / & in the stede of prelates in that place, put in spyrytual rulers. And whē you so haue done, ye chaūge shal for the mater not be very great / & yet so myche as it shalbe, shal more serue me then hym.

But yet to make me sory, yt euer I was so farre ouersene, as to take a way his gay golden worde of spyrytuall rulers from hym, he begynneth as it were with a great thret […] sayth.

What mays[…]er More meaneth to chaunge these wordes spyrytuall rulers into prelates, I can not te[…]l. But nowe by occasyon of the wordes that mayster More hathe spoken, I wyll saye farthe[…] in the mater then I hadde thought to haue done.

Howe happy was I so, yt I had not the grace to let his owne worde stande. For now wyll he saye farther in the mater thenne euer he hadde thoughte to haue done. And that ys (sayth he) this.

That I thynke veryly that if so great an ouersyght fell in to prelates and spyrytuall rulers, that they wolde take vppon them to preache herely, that they wolde that the people sholde byleue theym therin / and to take yt to be catholycall that they preached. For who wolde preache any thynge but suche as they wold haue theyr audyence byleue.

Byleue me good readers, that thys man weneth he sayeth well fauoredly in this poīt / wherin he taketh such pleasure, that afterwarde fo. lxxix. he falle[…]h into the same agayn, and sayth thus.

Mays[…]er More go[…]th about onely to proue, that all my tale ys los[…]e, bycause prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they preache heresye as he taketh yt that I shol[…]e saye they do. And yet I sayde not so in dede. And yf I dyd say so / I sayde but trewly. For yf they dyd preache heresye, yt is certayne that they wolde loke to be byleued as I haue sayde byfore / ye and yf they wolde preache and saye that yf they preched heresye, that they wolde the people sholde not byleue theym: yet yf they dyd after preache heresye in dede, they wolde loke that the people sholde byleue theym. For they wolde saye that they were no heresyes that they preached. For who wyll confesse that he preacheth heresye.

Nowe good readers here haue I ioyned you to gether this good mānis gaye wordes in two places, wherin I perceyue he pleaseth hym selfe ryght well. But to thentent that you may se whether he haue so good cause as he weneth, consyder well his wordes and myne byfore, wheruppon he cometh to thys poynte. For he maketh as though, I wythoute occasyon geuyn of his wordes, hadde writen that the prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they wolde preache heresye. Wherin whether he saye trew or not you shall se by hys owne wordes, whyche are these.

The lyghte of grace wyll not come, as longe as the spirytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyate of god, that the people are bound to obay them & to accepte all that they do and teache, wythoute argumētes resys[…]ence or grudgynge.

Nowe good readers fyrst consyder well here in these wordes of his, what wysedome the man hath shewed, in makynge suche a mumblynge of chaungyng spyrytuall rulers into prelates. For when he saith here, that the spyrytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hyghe: what doute is there but though he meane other rulers mo besyde whom he calleth no prelates: yet he meaneth prelates to / ye & prelates specyally to. And then when he sayth that the prelates & the other spyritual rul[…]rs pretende this or that: may I not wel say that he sayth ye prelates pretend this? yes veryly that I may. And yet in so chaūgyng his worde: I chaunge it to his aduantage & not vnto myne, in yt I make his odyouse sayenge myche lesse, and nothynge more. And thus fyrste you se good readers this mannys myche ouersyght in fyndynge of that faute.

Now consyder farther good readers yt he sayth in those wordes, not that the spyrytual rulers, yt is to saye both the prelates & all the remanaunt to, pretend theyr authorite to be hygh and so immedyatly deryued fro god, that the peple are boūd to obey them in this thynge or that thynge, one, or twayne, or tenne, or twentye / but vtterly to accept and obaye not onely all theyr teachyngꝭ, but also al theyr doynges to / and neyther argue resyst nor grudge at any maner thyng, that they wold eyther teache or do.

This generall thynge he saythe. And therfore though I deale as you se so fauorably with him in my.xxvii chapyter of myn Apologye, as to dyuyde ye mater, & aske whether he mēt yt by theyr whole authoryte or part: I myght well vpon these wordes of his haue taken it, yt he had very shamfully belyed them, & had sayde yt they had pretēded to haue theyr whole authoryte īmediatly of god euery whit. For if I wold so haue sayd / his generall wordes wolde well haue warraunted myne. Also syth his saynge is so generall, and extendeth vtterly not onely to all theyr techyngꝭ, but also to al theyr doynges to / & sayth that they pretend, yt by goddes immediate ordynaunce the people shold accepte all to gether, both al y• euer they say, & all yt euer they do: by how many maner thynges myght I haue confuted his saynge, and haue proued it false?

But yet his sainge beyng such, I toke but one thyng / & yt was such, as for ye mater yt we both specially spake of was next at hand. And therfore I sayde / that they pretende not to haue suche an authory[…]e that men sholde obay th[…]ym in all thynges / for they ptēde not to haue authorite to bynde m[…]n to byleue and obay them, yf they wolde preache heresyes. But they p[…]ynly professe that if they so wold men shold not byleue theym nor obey them therin.

Here you se that where he sayth that he ment not that the prelates wo[…]de preache heresye: he speketh all besyde the purpose. For I sayde not that he eyther so sayd or so ment. But I sayde and yet saye, that in those wordes he sayde, that yf they wolde preche heresies, they do now pretende, that by the authorite whyche god hathe geuyn theym, the people were thenne therin bounden to beleue and obey theym.

And in hys so sayenge I there sayde and yet saye, that he sayth very farre vntrewe, and that they pretende yt not, but playnely pretēde the cōtrary. And thus in this poynt that he maketh a mater without grownd or cause, and that hym selfe with his owne wordes gaue me good occasyon to wryte the thynge that I wrote: this you se good readers proued very playne.

But now consyder his other wordes, wherin he lyketh hym selfe so well, and weneth yt he proueth yt the spyrytuall rulers of the realme pretende, that yf they wolde preche heresye, the people were by goddes ordynaunce bounden to byleue & obey them therin, bycause they wold than say yt it were none heresye. In thys poynt hys reasonynge hath I promyse you a lytell more subtylte than substaunce / and yet but symple subtylte neyther.

Fyrste as for his case, that yf all the spyrytuall rulers wolde preche heresye: yf he had ment of the spyrituall rulers of all chrystendome, I wolde haue admitted his case none other wyse, but as men put & admitte a case impossyble, to se what myghte ensew theron yf it were possyble / as saynt Poule putteth the case that yf an angel came from heuyn & preched a cōtrary gospell, yet the same angel shold not be byleued. But now syth he putteth it but by the spyrytuall rulers of one realme, I admytte the case as possyble / but yet as suche a case, as I truste in god this good man shall se the skye fall fyrste and cache larkes ere it happen, though it maye be lykely inough to happen in some one or twayne, or some fewe[…] agaynste whome the remanaunt shall preche and teche the trouth.

But now sayth thys good man thus. If it so happened in them all: than wolde they all pretende, that by theyr authoryte gyuen them of god, the people were bounden therin to byleue and obaye theym. For they wolde than saye that theyr heresyes were none heresyes.

I am content lo to graunte hym all thys / and I aske hym now what than? For all thys good readers proueth (you se very well) no more, but that yf that case happened that they also preched, they wolde thanne al so pretende. But all this proueth neuer a whyt, that the spyrytuall rulers eyther now do, or at any tyme haue done, pretended theyr authoryte such. Now consyder than for what purpose he speketh of suche pretendyng. He sayeth (you wote well) theyr pretendynge of theyr authoryte to be so great, that they people shold obay them without argument, grudge, or cōtradiccyon in all yt euer they eyther say or do. This he layth I say for so sore a cause of this diuision, which he maketh in his boke, yt he sayth the lyght of grace wyl not come to ceace it, tyll they ceace so to pretende.

And therfore good readers syth thys is the thynge yt he sayth, and the purpose that he sayth it for, makyng it a cause of dyuysyon present: how can he maynteyne hys sayenge with a case fayned, wherby it may be that they wyll so pretende hereafter / where as euer hytherto hym selfe sayth not naye, but yt they bothe haue pretended and yet pretende the contrary? Can he mayntayne yt the temporalty is at dyuision wyth the spyrytualty now all redy, bycause it maye peraduenture happe here after by a farre fet possybylyte, that they maye than, no man woteth whan, pretende peraduenture a thynge, wherof they presentely pretende the contrary / and protest also that yf the case sholde so mysse happe hereafter, they desyre now for than yt no man sholde therin than byleue theym? Saw you euer good read[…]rs any man with suche a symple subtyltye, caste all his mater in the dust so shamfully?

Now where he sayth to mayn[…]ayne hys mater here withall, that it is not to suppose ye spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende that such authoryte as they haue of the graūte of prynces, is immedyately of god: I say that therin he sayth trouth, and yt I suppose that they wyll not. But yet let hym selfe loke wel in his own boke of diuisiō, & he shall fynde that hym selfe sayth y• contrary there, of that he now sayth here / and sheweth some thynges whiche he bothe sayth that they haue but by the meane of prynces and the good mynde of the people, and yet sayth also that they pretende to haue the same thynges immedyately of god. As for ensample both theyr a[…] thoryte to haue ye tenth part for tythe, and the thynge[…] whyche they enioy by the name of ye lybertyes of ye chyrch, wherby theyr persons be in many thynges pryuyledged in this realme byfore ye persō of a say man. These thynges hym selfe sayth yt they haue but by a meane and not immedyately of god. And yet he sayth in this same xx. chapyter, that the thynges whych they call the lybertyes of the chyrch, they pretende to haue immedyately of god / and for all that he sayth now that it is not to suppose yt they wyll pretende so. And thus you maye se good readers, that for the defence of thys place, he is dreuyn to a shrewde narow streyte, whan to defende one fawte he is fayne to make twayne.

Now where as he saith I myght haue satysfyed my selfe wel inough, and yt the letter of his wordes were playne: you se that in the rehersynge agayne of hys own wordes fo. lxxx, he is fayne to suppresse & stele away these hys owne generall wordes, all that they do or teche, to make hys wordꝭ seme playne. For as you se, they standynge styll, his wordes are playne agaynst hym. For hym selfe now cō fesseth yt they pretende not to do by authoryte immedyate fro god, suche thynges as they do by authoryte gyuen them by prynces.

But bycause I wold fayne fully satysfye hym: I shall now shew you yt with his new declaringe yt his wordes were well inough, he hath made his mater out of all measure wurse.

For now rede his wordes agayne fo. lxxx. & th[…]re you shall se yt he saith yt he meneth onely of such authoryte as ye spirituall rulers pret[…] ̄de to haue imm[…]diately of god. And yet after he declareth it ferther & better on ye secunde syde of the same lefe in ye.xiiii. lyne, yt he meneth onely such authoryte, not as they pretēde to haue, but as they haue in dede īmediately of god. And to thentent men myghte se yt he meneth not of authorite falsely pretē ded, but truely had īmediatly of god, he putteth for ye sample theyr authoryte in ministracyō of ye sacramētes.

Thys is hys owne exposicyon of his owne wordes, whyche he wolde haue taken for so playne, that he is angry with me that I could not spye it, and so satysfye my selfe before.

Well go to now: let vs reherse his owne wordes agayne as hym selfe for his owne aduauntage folio.lxxx. reherseth them, & let vs plant in hys owne exposiciō with thē, to make his sentēce ye more clere / & thā shal we se to what good conclusion he bryngeth all in conclusyon. For than commeth hys whole tale to thys.

As longe as the spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende, that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god, in suche thynges as they haue theyr authoryte immedyately of god in dede, (as in the minystracyon of the sacramentes and such other thynges lyke) that the people are bounden to obay them wythout argument or resystence: so long the lyght of grace wyll not appere.

Now good readers here be now hys owne wordes wyth hys owne exposycion therin. And how lyke you them now? For now the sentēce hath he brought at last with myche wurke to none other, but that the lyghte of grace wyll not appere, as longe as the spyrytuall rulers pretende to be obayed and not resysted in the mynystracyon of the sacramentes & suche other thyngꝭ lyke, bycause they haue theyr authoryte therin immedyately of god in dede. But than on the tother syde, whan so euer they wyll not pretende theyr authoryte so hygh therin, nor so immedyately deryued of god, as to be obayed therin, but wyll be content that men grudge and argue and resyste them therin, and pull them from the awter, and suffre them to mynyster no sacramētes no[…] any such other thyngꝭ lyke: than shal by thys good mannes newe declaracyon the light of grace appere by and by. Hath not thys pacyfyer here good readers, wyth myche laboure at last brought thys mater to a wyse conclusyon[…]

If he wyll nowe go fro thys agayne, and put in his other generall wordes agayne / whyche for his aduauntage he lefte out in that place: than is all gone agayne that he goe[…]h aboute / and all myne answere made (as I haue shewed you) good, and all his owne wordes nought.

In the lefe also[…] lxxxi. these are hys wordes.

where I saye that as longe as the spyrytuall ruler[…] wyll pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god, that the people are bounde to obaye them wythout argument or resystence &c. By these wordes I confesse that they haue authoryte immedyately deryued fro god. But as I sayd before in the seuenth chapyter, mayster Mor[…] hath a ryght greate and a ryght inuentyue wytte, wherby he can lyghtly tnrne a sentence after hy[…] appetyte. And so he doth here &c.

What hygh wytte or inuentyue I haue to turne a sentence, let ye reders iudge. But surely the heygth of my wyt can not reche so hygh, as to perceyue in those wordes of his, the sentence that hym selfe turneth them to / nor I trow no mannes els / tyll these wordes, They haue authoryte, and these wordes, They pretende to haue authoryte, be bothe one thynge, whyche they were neuer yet. And therfore before his cō fessiō that he now maketh here new: I myght thā well take that excepciō which I haue brought there, to a litle better effect, than doth his here, whiche wyth all hys wrestelynge and al hys new declaracyons, bryngeth all togyther euer the lenger vnto the wurse conclusyon.

For nowe to colour this his ouersyght with all, he telleth vs whiche maner of pretences he ment in those wordꝭ, which he wold here so fayne defende. And than in stede of pretendynge to be by goddes ordynaūce byleued & obayed in all thyngꝭ as well wordes as dedes, he bryngeth forth here a few amountyng in a some totall to the infynyte nomber of foure.

The fyrst is, that the order and disposicyon of the thynges yt are to be disposed of ye chyrch, be to be disposed by the prestes: whyche poynt to put as for a mater that hath made dyuysyon bytwene theym and vs, is a poynt of smal reason as farre as my reason can geue me. For I remēber not of any varyaunce that euer arose bytwene them & vs for that poynt.

The secunde is, that all chrysten prynces must subdue theyr execuciōs to bysshoppes, & not to preferre them aboue them. I can not tell you whyther there be any suche lawe made or not. But I can tell you well that though there be, this poynt wyll not serue his purpose ye value of a blew poynt. For I am sure he neuer sawe in hys dayes any bysshoppe in thys realme, vse that pretence agaynst the kynge, or that euer there arose any diuisyon theruppon.

The thyrde is, yt no charge shold be set vppon clerkes by laye power. I neuer herde yet any dyuision ryse vppon thys poynt in my dayes / nor he neyther in his I dare saye. For I neuer saw the day yet nor he neither, but that whan any nede of the kyng & the realm requyred it, they haue euer more ben redy to set taxes vpō them selfe, as lyberally and as largely as any man well myght wyth any good reason requyre.

The fourth is he sayth, that yf a seculare iudge be neglygent in doyng of iustyce, that thanne after monicion to amende it geuen to the iudge, yf he wyl not, than ye spyrytuall iudge may compel hym to it, or ellys supply his […]ome and here the cause.

If I shold loke now for th[…]se.iiii. lawes, it myght p[…]raduenture happē that I sholde fynde, that thys man had mysse taken some of thē, as well as he hath mysse vnderstonden some of the other that he hath spokē of before. But syth that I neuer knewe grudge or diuisyon ryse here vppon any of them, me nedeth neuer to loke more for the mater. For sith this man neuer saw that any spyrituall iudge hath interprysed, in defawt of iustyce to geue any such monicion, or to supplye the rome: were that law neuer so vnreasonable, yet to say that vpō that lawe the temporaltye hath here cōceyued such grudge as it hath ben a cause of diuisyon, this pacifier of diuisyon may be mych ashamed yt euer he deuysed it. For I dare say that as well this fourthe cause, as many of all his other be suche, as the people neuer neyther talked of nor thoughte vppon / nor before his own boke, had neu[…]r redde nor herde of. And therfore by the puttynge in of such thynges: euery chyld as I sayd in myne apologye may sone perceyue that his bokes labour & entēde not to quenche but rather to kyndle diuisyon.

And therfore verely with his seyenge here euyn in the ende and conclusyon suche causes of his dyuisyon, whych causes but by hym selfe the peple neuer herde of: I maye well saye onys agayne good readers, is not this gere by this good pacyfyer brought vnto a wyse conclusyon?

To those wordes wryten in myn apology the.169. lefe, this good man answereth thus.

And now to thys conclusyon of mayster More I wyll say thus, that I beseche almyghty god, that the ende of all these maters may come to thys conclusyon, that the very groundely causes of these dyuisyons, that now be not onely in thys realme, but also in maner through all chrysten realmes, maye come to perfite knowledge. For surely I do not take it, that they began eyther by heresyes, or apostasyes as mayster More in his apology meaneth that they […]lde do.

Here you may se good readers yt this good man wold be loth yt it shold appere, that ye diuisiō, parel, & harme haue any where sprōgē vpō heresies begon & set forth by false apostatase, wedded freres & monkes, as clerely as it is knowen yt by thoccasiō therof, there haue ben slayn ī Almain within these very fewe yeres, aboue.lxxx. M. persōs in one somer & yet synnys among the Swychis whan zuyngliꝰ was slayne, many thousandes killed to / and the warre bygonne by the heretykes, and the lashe by goddꝭ great goodnes layed in theyr own neckys / as falsely as Fryth bylyeth the catholykes, and agaynst the playne and open knowen trouth, wolde wyth shame inough to hym self make men wene yt the catholikes begā ye warre.

But than goth he ferther & saith. And yf mayster More wyll nedyly endeuour hym selfe to hyde the truth therin, a[…] it semeth he hath done in this chapiter, and dyuerse other places of his apologye, by kepynge secrete suche abusyons and pretences, as in my conscyence haue ben moste pryncypall causes of thys dyuysyon, wherof parte be recyted in the sayd t[…]eatyce, and part in thys answere but not all.

Of these there had nede in dede to be mo, & some more trew, and some of a lytell more substaūce to, than be the most parte of these yt this good man hath layed forth yet.

Now here he sayeth that I kepe secrete such abusyons and pretences as be the pryncypall causes of the dyuysyon, wherof hym selfe hath he sayth shewed some: eyther he meaneth that those which I kept secrete, be those that hym selfe hath wryten, or other besyde theym. If he meane other: then eyther hym self knoweth theym or not. If he knowe them not: how knoweth he that I know them, or that there be any suche at all? If hym selfe knowe theym and shewe them not: then he hydeth theym and kepeth theym secret hym self as wel as I. Nowe yf he meane but those that hym selfe hath wryten: how can I kepe those secrete that he hath writen? Can I bothe gather vppe all hys bokes and go hyde theym, and also make thē yt haue redde them go vnreade them agayne, or forgete what they haue redde.

But now after this, lyke wyse as he is wonte whē reason fayleth hym to fal to preachyng: so here, bycause reason faileth hym, he falleth to prayenge / and therin thus he sayth.

I beseche almighty god that he haue no power to do yt, but that the trouth maye come to fyghte therin, tho[…]gh he resyste yt all that he can. For yf yt were knowen / and the fautes charytably reformed: all these dyuysyons wolde shortely haue an ende.

Nay perdye, this man seeth well ynought that though the fautꝭ of the spyrytualtye were neuer so fully reformed, yet could not all that suffyse to brynge all dyuysyons to an ende, but yf one thyng be done / whych wyl neuer be done, wherof (which he forgeteth) I gaue hym warnynge in the.116. lefe of myne Apologye in these wordes.

But now if thys pacyfyer to cease and quenche thys dyuysyon, coulde fynde the meanes to make all the whole clergye good: yet for all that, syth he layeth for causes of this dyuysyon that some men saye thys by the clergye, and some men saye by them that / were all the clergye neuer so good in dede, and serued god neuer so wel, this diuisyon by his own tale, yet could not for all that cease / except he coulde prouyde farther, that no pytuouse pacyfyer sholde in lamentynge of dyuysyon, putte forthe a boke and saye, that some lay men say that some of the clergye be noughte, and loue theyre ease and theyr welth / and that some saye that those that seme beste and take moste labour and payne, be but hypocrytes for all that, and serue god but for vayne glorye to gete theym selfe laude and prayse amonge the people.

Also yf defautes sholde be charyble reformed, as this man sayth he wolde haue theym: yt wolde be nede then to sette a lytle more charytable folke aboute yt, then those haue ben, that haue begyled thys good man wyth euyll counsayle in hys bookys / and haue made hym vnder pretexte of pacyfyenge dyuysyon, sette forthe and encrease dyuysyon, wyth dyuysynge and spredynge abrode causes of murmure and grndge, makynge in some of them an elephāt of a gnat, and for olde grudges bryngynge forth some suche, as the people neuer had herd of tyll they redde his bokꝭ and some of the very worst, whyche were most effectuall causes yf they were trewe, bryngyng forth by hepes wyth a fygure of some say, and very playn lyes in dede. Is this the way good readers for a pacifyer to make peace wyth, and put awaye dyuysyons?

And nowe hymselfe handelynge the mater thus / he taketh of his charyte great thought, leste I go about to hynder hys holy purpose. And therfore sayth.

I doute me very sore, that maister more goeth obout rather to marre all, then to endeuoyr hym selfe to make all well.

Whyche be the lykelyheddes now good reders that lede this good man, into this gret fere? Bycause I make open the shrewde mynde of hys demure countenaunce, and the harmful intent and purpose of his holy holesome wordes. Bycause I wolde haue the temporaltye and the spyrytualtye as the bodye and the soule of one man, loue well to gether and agree and neyther of theym be glad to here euyll of other, nor to geue eare to false sedycyouse slaunder, but the good folke of eyther parte, drawe bothe by one lyne, accordynge to both the law is, to represse and kepe vnder the bad / and among other vyces, specyall suche pestylent heresyes, as elles wolde oppresse the catholyque fayth, & prouoke the dyspleasure of god, and fyrste sow deuysyon, and afterwarde rere rebellyon in ye realme, as they haue done byfore thys tyme both here and in other places / and yt I to thys entent geue myne aduyce to kepe styll those good lawes that bothe thys realme and all the corps of chrystendome haue long vsed and approued. Bycause I thus do so: therfore this good man fereth that I go about to marre all.

But whyle his bokes go aboute on the tother syde, to make the world wene, that heresyes be no causes of dyuysyon / and to haue heretyques lyue in the lesse fere, wyth many malycyouse some sayes falsely slaundereth the ordynaryes, of cruell wrong full handelyng of the peple, to dryue them by drede or by shame or other tedyouse besynes, to sette heretyques alone / and go aboute wyth balde reasons the beste not worthe a ryshe, to put away the good lawes yt haue ben made agaynst theym / & vnder colour of a feruour to the faith exhorte men to go wynne the holy land / and in the meane whyle yet wyth suche wyly wayes, labour wyth heretyques, to fyll vp the […]tretes at home, & by the decay of the crysten catholyke fayth, prouoke ye wrath of god vpon al our heddes, whych our lord rather turne vpon theyrs that so wold haue it: his bokes besyly goyng about this gere, hym […] goeth about (ye se well pe[…] dye) to make all thynge euyll.

But now wyll I fyrste fynyshe vp his.xx. chapiter, wherin he goeth forwarde thus.

And in thye chapyter mayster More layth dyuer[…] other obieccyons to proue the sayde letter vnreasonable, whych were very tedyouse to reherse at length. And therfore I shall as shortely as I can / touch[…] some of theym.

Ye knowe well ynough why they be tedyouse to reherse. Surely bycause they be very tedyouse to answere. But where he sayth he wil reherse some of thē: he begynneth first to shew yt I had no cause to doute of his wordes wherin he sayth that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theyr authorytye to be so hygh & so immediately deryued from god &c. I hadde sayth he no cause to doute of what authoryte he ment. For he sayth that his wordes were playn ynough, yt he meaneth onely of suche authoryties, as they pretende to haue immedyately from god.

To this I say playnly, that than are his wordes playne false.

For hys wordes be, that they pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued from god, that the people are bounde to obay them and to accept all that they do and teache, wythout argumēt resystence or grudge.

Now knoweth euery man very wel yt they do not pretende to haue authoryte immedyately from god, to do all thynge that they now lawfully do and may do, in whyche the people are now bounde to accept and obey them. For as I sayde in myne apologye, in many suche thynges they pretende & claym theyr authoryte deryued from prynces. And therfore ye se that and he labour about yt thys.vii. yeres: he can neuer defende his wordes, but that I answered hym trewly / & with the necessarye dystynccyon that I there made, answered euery parte. And this hym self seeth wel inough / and therfore in the.lxxx. lefe in the begynnynge of the seconde syde, where he reherseth hys wordes agayne, he leueth out these wordes of his owne. and to accepte all that they do and teache.

Vppon whyche wordes the poynte of the mater hangeth. And therfore here you se nowe, that where as in the begynnynge of this chapyter, he wolde make yt seme that I stele two or thre wordes of hys, whyche I neyther dyd nor neded for any strength that was in them: here was hym selfe fayne to stele awaye hys owne wordes, to begyle the reader vppon the readyng of the place, and make hym passe ouer hys faute for the whyle vnmarked.

And thus good reader you se, that to saue his owne wordes vp ryghte, and to impugne myne: in those two seuys.lxxx. &.lxxxi. he bestowed his labour in vayne.

But then goeth he farther & toucheth these wordes of myne Apololye, wryten in my sayde.xxvii. chapyter fo. 165.

Surely in suche thynges as the whole clergy of cristendome teacheth & ordereth in spyrytuall thynges, as be dyu[…]rse of those lawes which this pacyfyer in some places of this boke toucheth, beynge made agaynste heretyques / and all be yt that they be & longe haue bene thorowe the whole corps of crystendome both temporaltye and spyrytualtye, by longe vsage and custome ratyfyed agreed and confyrmyd, yet he layeth some lacke in theym callynge theym very sore / in those thynges I saye, that syth I nothynge doute in my mynde / but in that cōgregacyon to goddes honour gracyousely gathered to gether, the good assystence of the spyryte of god is accordynge to Chrystes promyse as veryly present and assystente as it was wyth his blessed apostles, men oughte wyth reuerence and wythout resystence, grudge, or argumentes to receyue them. And yf a prouyncyall counsayle erre / there are in Chrystes chyrche ordynarye wayes to reforme yt. But in suche thynges as any spyrytuall gouernours after a lawfull order and forme, dyuyse for the spyrytual weale of theyr soules that are in theyre charge, and whyche thynges are such as good folke may soon perceyue them for good / in these thinges at the leste wyse sholde the good not geue eare to the badde folke and frowarde, that agaynst the beste thynge that can be deuysed can neuer lacke a fonde frowarde argument.

To these wordes this good man answereth me thus.

Then to shew my mynde in some thynges that mayster More hathe touched yet farther in the sayde chapiter: I wyl fyrst agree wyth mayster More / y• in suche thynges as the hole clergye of crystendome teacheth and ordreth in syrytuall thynges / and why the of longe tyme haue ben by longe vsage and custome thorough the hole corps of crystendome spyrytualtye and temporaltye, ratyfyed agreed and confyrmed, ought wyth reuerence to be receyued: but yet yf the same thynges thorough longe contynuāce and thorough abusions that ryse by occasyon of thē, proue hurtefull & ouer greuous to the peple to bere […] they may the people g[…]udge and complayne lawfully to theyr superyours / and desyre that they maye be reformed / as lawfully as they may do to haue temporal[…] lawes reformed when nede requyreth.

As vnto thys, bycause he ys so gentle to agree with me, I shall as gently agre wyth hym agayne / but yet he getteth nought therby. For sith the lawes agaynste whyche he wryteth, made for the correccyon of heretyques, as I haue in the.xv.xvi. and.xvii. chapyter playnely proued agaynste hym, and reproued his obieccyons therin, be good and very reasonable / and that abusyons (by occasyon wherof he wold make yt now seme, that in long contynuaunce they become hurtfull) he proueth not one in this worlde, but by false slaunderouse some sayes surmysed agaynst the ordynaryes, and dyuers tymes founde false byfore the kynges honorable counsayle: this answere here of his, helpeth nothyng his mater.

Then goeth he […]arther and sayth vn thys wyse.

I wyll also agre that in the congregacyon of the clergye, to goddes honour gracyously gathered to gether: the good assystence of the spyryte of god, accordynge to Chrys[…]es promyse / wyll be as veryly present and assystente wyth them[…] as yt was wyth hys blessed apos[…]les / yf they order them selfe in mekenesse and charyte and put all theyr truste in g[…]d, as the apostles dyd. But yf they wyl trust […] theyr own wyt and in worldly polycye: then may they lyghtly lose the spyryte of god. And whether yt were so at the makynge of the lawes, which mays[…]er More speketh of concernynge heresye or not, I can not tel[…] but this wyll I say, that yf they were not go[…]d and reasonable in them selfe at the fyrs[…]e makyng, that they were neuer made by the assystence of the spyryt of god. And surely I can not then se, how the vsage and longe contynuaunce of them can ratyfye or confyrme them. For as yt is of an euyll custome, that the lenger yt is vsed, the greater is the offence: so i[…] yt of an euyll lawe. And lyke as an euyll custome ys to be put awaye, so yt is of an euyll lawe.

Of what strength the generall coūsayles be, & whether we may in any of theē by laufulorder gadered togeder, put any diffydēce or mystrust / and yf we may then in what maner thinges, and in what wise they bynd, & whom, & how long: I shal not nede for thys mater to dyspute wyth this good man. And all his doute concernynge the sayd lawes, whyther they be reasonable or not, and whether the contynuaūce of them be good or not: in all these thynges haue I so confuted thys good man all redye, yt these wordes of hys can serue of noughte. But yet to make it seme that he sa[…]d some what / and that no lawe of the chyrche whyche he hath here impugned, made agaynst heretyques, was eyther ratyfyed or approued in thys realme: ye shall heare how properlyly he proueth. Lo good readers […]hese are his wordes.

And the lawee affermed by vsage and agremente of the people be the lawes of […]astynge and kepynge of […]lydayes, and suche other as the people of theyr free agremente accepte and agree vnto: but these lawes made for punyshement of heresyes were neuer agreed by a comen assente of the people, but that some partyculare persons / wherof some haue ben gyltye / and some peraduenture not gyltye / haue ben punyshed the[…]by ryghte sore agaynste theyr wylles. And that can not be a confyrmacyō of them that so agree against theyr wyl. But as to them y• do the correccyon, yt y[…] a confyrmacyō: for they do it wt theyr good wyll. And though that correccyon were a […]uffycyent confyrmacyon, as agaynst theym that be so punyshed: yet yt can not be a confyrmacyon to make the lawe approued for all the resydue of the people.

I can not se therfore that any ratyfyeng, agreyng, or confyrmynge of the people can be pr[…]u[…]d in tho lawes, concernynge the correccyon for heresye:

Dyd euer any man good readers here suche a nother reason as thys is? He denyeth not but that the suyle ex officio, and the order taken in the generall counsayle, and the other farther procedynges agayns[…]e heretyques, accordynge to the comen receyued spyrytuall lawes, haue bene vsually longe accustom[…]d in thys realme / & by the princes of ye same & generally by all the people by comen vsage accepted / and ouer that, by playn parlyament lawes and orders made for all temporall offycers to assyste the ordynaryes therin, and to put the offenders in execucyon ther upon and knowynge wel all thys, be dyssymuleth yt euery whytte, & sayth not one worde therto / but argueth that yt was neuer ratyfyed in thys realme, bycause the heretykes yt are for h[…]resye punyshed, be burned agaynste theyre wyll, and agree not them selfe therto. This reason wyl I neuer labour to confute. For if any man be so mad to lyke yt, I were almoste as madde as he yf I wolde reason wyth hym.

After this he resorteth agayne to the vnreasonablenes of the lawes / and proueth theym vnreasonable, by the sentence of hys owne conceyte. For these are his wordes.

And then whether the lawes in them self be good & indyfferent or not, I wyll remytte the iugement in that behalfe to theym that haue authoryte. But to shew my conceyte therin, I shall wyth good wyll euen as my cōscyence meueth me to / & that is, that I coulde neuer se, that yt was reasonable to be accepted as a lawe / that a man shulde be accused & knowe not his acuser. And that yt is yet more vnreasonable that a man shuld be condempned / and know not the the wytnesse that condemned hym. Also that a man vpon suspeccyon shuld be dryuen to make his purgacyon at the wyll of the ordinary, or be accursed: Or that a periured wytnesse shulde cōdempne hym, that he had clered afore: That a greate offender and a le[…]se offender shulde haue one lyke punysshement, yf they renunced: or be a lyke arrested and put in pryson: I neuer saw no indysferencye in it.

Now good readers as for the cō ceyte that the good conscience of this man hath cōceiued, is of very trowth but euyn a very pore conceyte / as in the sayed chapyters the.xv. the.xvi. and the.xvii. euery man maye soone perceyue.

How be it in the laste poynt that he fyndeth so great a fawte, that a greater offender and a lesse off[…]der, sholde haue one lyke punysshement, thys man loked not well about hym whan he wrote that worde. For whā the thynge is well loked on / ye weight of his reason wyll fall vppon the wronge syde, and all agayns[…]e hys mynde. For where so euer a greater offender and a lesse offender be bothe punysshed alyke: yf the greater offender haue no more payne than the lesse hath deserued, there is the order some what lesse sharpe than it sholde be / but yet not vnryghtuouse. For yf it were, than were the lawes of this realme vnlawfull, that hange vppe hym that doeth but robbe a man, as well as hym that robbeth hym and kylleth hym to. Now so is it in the spyrituall law, that whā two do both renounce theyr heresye, and abiure and bere faggottes bothe, yf the tone hylde.x. heresyes and the tother but twayne, the greater offender hath no more payne than the lesse deserueth. And therfore yf this man in that case complayne: thys complaynt (as I sayd) turneth vn the tother syde / and fyndeth the fawte in that, that whe[…] the lesse offender bereth one faggot, the greater bereth not fyue, yf theyr bodyes be lyke of strength.

How […]e it good readers all thys ta[…]e of hys is to no purpose at all. For in the spyrytuall law, they waye the offences / and consyder the cyrcū staunces, and enioyne the penaunce after the weygth or grauyte of the trespas / and for emprysonynge vse to put no man to it, but where good reason wolde not suffre hym walke abrode. And therfore I suppose / that whan the man was wrytynge thys / hys wytle was walkynge towarde the holy lande. For yf he wold[…] saye that he meneth by the lesse offender and the more offender, suche twayne as abiure bothe, and bere fa[…]ottes bothe, wh[…]re the tone was worthy and the tother not worthy at all: I saye that neyther his wordes wyll mayntayne any such menyng (for he speketh generally of the lesse off[…]der & the more) nor also he proueth none suche but by his slaunderouse some sayes, whyche haue ben playne proued false.

Than goeth he ferther and knytteth vppe all the chapyter wyth this goodly conclusyon.

And yf any man wyll saye that these reasons wyll gyue a boldenesse t[…] heretykes: trewly I wyll not […]ully make answere therto. But thys wyll I saye, that I thynke veryly that they wyll gyue a boldenesse to trewth and teew men. And veryly I haue herd say, that it were better to suffre an offender g[…] vnpunyshed, than to punyshe hym vnryghtuo[…]sely and agaynst dew order of iustyce.

Marke good reders here for our lordes sake, what maner of reason thys is. The thynge that hym selfe very well perceyueth to be the very weyght and pyth of all the mater, & therfore at laste obiecteth it agaynste hym selfe, as a thynge that had nede to be soyled, what answere doeth he make vnto it? He sayth he wyll not answere it fully. In fayth that is spoken very dully: well, syth so greate weyghte hangeth on it, yf he wolde not answere it fully, he sholde haue answered at the leste wyse halfe. If not halfe, a fourth part yet, or a fyfth parte at the lest. For thys yt he sayth, answereth no parte at all. For two thynges he sayth / one that though he can not saye naye, but that his reasōs yf they be folowed, shall gyue a boldenesse to heretikes: yet he thynketh they shall also gyue boldenesse to trowth and trew men. And by my trowth I thynke weryly vn the tother syde, yt yf heretykes haue boldenesse gyuē them, and (as they therby soone shall) take corage and myche encreace, they shall make the trowth shrynke, and many trew men aferde. And yf the geuynge boldnes to falsed, shall geue boldenesse to trouth / assaye than and geue boldenesse / and than loke whyther trewe men shall wax the bolder by it.

The secunde thynge that he saith is thys, whyche yet he dothe not afferme but sayth he hath herd it sayd, that it were better to suffre an offender go vnpunysshed, than punyshe hym vnrightuousely and agaynst dew order of iustyce.

Thys were somewhat pretely sayd, yf thys good man had proued yt heretykes myght not be punyshed by those lawes, but vnryghtuousely and agaynst the order of iustice. But than how hath he proued that? By no meane in thys world but twayne. The tone, that it is not ryghtuouse nor indyfferente, that a greater offender and a lesse offender sholde be punyshed, emprisoned, or arrested lyke / whych vnreasonable reason oppugneth playnely in all crimynall causes almost, all the lawes of thys realme and yet helpeth not hys mater, but impayreth it mych, as a lytell here before I haue well & clerely proued.

His other reason is his generall reason yt is his whole grounde, wher vppon he b[…]yldeth agaynst all those lawes all his whole mater / that is to wytte, that by those lawes whyche are made for punysshement of heretykes, it may somtyme fortune that a man may be punysshed whyche is no heretyke in d[…]de.

Now is thys reason so vnreasonable to be layed for a reason to […]ake awaye a lawe, that yf it were admytted for reason, it could suffer neyther in thys realme, nor in any realme els any lawe stand in this world, that all the wyttes in this world coulde imagyne or deuyse, for any maner punysshement of vngracyouse folke. And albe it that of such lawes some maye be reformed from the wurse vnto ye better / though neuer fully to suche poynt, but that an innocent may take harme: yet both by r[…]ason and experyence it appereth playnely, yt these lawes whyche he wolde haue chaū ged and made more easy, can neuer haue any good chaunge, but by makynge them more streygth.

And thus hath this good man soreouersene hym selfe, more I trowe than.xx. tymes in hys.xx. chapyter.