The.xv. chapyter

HIs.xv. chapiter concernynge the suit ex officio, begynneth in the xlviii. lefe of his boke, & holdeth on into ye.liiii.

And for as mych good christē readers at it may well appere, that this poynt is the specyall thynge that he fayne wolde brynge about, that is to wyt to sowe an opinyon in mennes heddes, that it were good to chaunge and put awaye that suit, toward whiche purpose all his boke of diuysyon bendeth / laborynge fyrst with his so many some sayes, to brynge the spyrytuall iudges in suspycyon and obloquy, and make the people wene yt they meruelousely dyd with mych wronge & cruelty mysse handle men for heresye: therfore I shall in thys poynt here confute hys argumentes so playne & in such wyse, that who so lyste indyfferently to rede bothe the partes, shall fynde here causes good and suffycyent why, by his vnreasonable reasōs neuer after to set a flye

And fyrst bycause ye shall well se that I wyll not wrestle in the darke, but brynge the mater into lyght open and playne at your eyen / I wyll in this mater leue you not out one word of this his.xv. chapyter, but brynge forth his wordꝭ with myne. And thā whyle you rede the tone fyrste, & the tother euyn after hande: there shall neyther he nor I / by any sly sleyght deceyue you.

But two thynges for thys mater wyll I requyre you fyrste / one that you reiecte one wyly sleyght of hys, with which he goth about euyn from the begynnynge to corrupte our iudgement that are temporall men, and in ye redyng to blynd vs with affecciō

For in all this mater he maketh as there were two partes. The tone he maketh the spyrytualtye. And thys cause he so maketh theyrs, as though the cōmodyte of that suit to be kepte, were a thynge that perteyned onely vnto thē. The tother partye he maketh vs of the temporalty, whom he wold haue put ye same suit away. For though that in the perleament be spyrytuall men also: yet all were they al vpon one syde sure, he seeth wel they were to fewe

But it is necessary that we consyder in this poynt, that though the iudges be spyrytuall, yet yf that suit be necessary for preseruacyon of the catholyke fayth, than is the profyte not the spirytuall mennes onely, but that profyte and aduauntage is our owne to. And yf by the chaunge of that suit ex officio, the decay of the catholyke fayth shall folow in this realme: than is not the losse and damage vnto the spyrytualtye alone, but the harme is importable vnto the whole realme.

Therfore haue this poynt in this mater euer before your eyen, that ye chaunge of that law yf that lawe be good, but yf he chaunge it in to a better, or at the leste as good, is a comen harme to the whole realme. And that harme happeneth in ye gretest thyng that we coulde possyble take harme in, yf we be (as I wote well we be & euer entende to be) faythfull trew chrysten people.

Loke therfore good readers both to his reasons and myne, and yf you fynde by his reasōs that the puttyng awaye of that law, be better for the kepyng of the catholyke fayth in this land, ye or better other wyse for this land without the minisshement of the fayth in the same, than am I well cō tent that ye compte thys good man bothe for very wyse and for very faithfull to.

But now yf you fynde by myne answere on ye tother side, yt al his reasōs in this poynt are not worth one rysshe towarde the profe of any necessary cause of chaunge / but hys reason and his argumentꝭ alway such therin, yt eyther they be byelded vppon a fa[…]se ground / or ellys yf he make any that happen to be true, yf ye fynde it yet but such as by the selfe same reason yf men wolde vnwysely folowe it, there myghte no lawe neyther longe laste, nor yet no law be made: yf you fynd I say his reasons agaynst this law but suche, ye wyll than I dowt not thynke it but good reason, for all his riall reasonyng to let ye law stand.

But than yf ye fynde […]erther yet, as I wote well ye shall, that the chaūge that he wolde make, vnder a nedeles pretence of preseruyng innocentes out of dayngeour and parell, and can not proue that thys hundred yere any one was wronged with it, sholde cause heretykes to be bolde, take corage, & encreace, and for lacke of this law the catholyke fayth to dekaye: than wyll you not I wote wel let to tell thys man, that he lacketh in this mater, how gay so euer he make it, either wyt, or (which wurse were) loue to the chrysten fayth.

The tother thynge yt I requyre, you shall your selfe se reasonable. For it serueth to the clere perceiuyng of vs bothe, how both he and I bere our selfe in this mater. And I shall not requyre therin parcyally for my parte, but a requeste indyfferent and egall for vs bothe, syth ye shall the clerer therby perceyue where about we bothe goo, and where any of vs bothe swarue a syde fro the mater, and to hyde the trouth out of syghte, slynke into lurkys lane.

My request is no more, but that it maye lyke you to take the laboure and payne for perceyuynge of the trowth, from the begynnynge to peruse the whole mater, as farre as perteyneth to the chaunge of this lawe.

Reade fyrste hys owne wordes in his owne boke of dyuysyon. And after reade myne answere in myne apologye, whyche you shall fynde in the fourtyth chapyter, the.218. lefe, and his wordꝭ to therwyth. And whanne those two thynges be bothe fresshe in your mynde, reade thanne this his fyftenthe chapyter of thys booke, wyth myne answeres euery where added therunto / and than haue I whan this is done lytell dowte of your iudgement, ye shall se the mater proue agaynste thys good man playne.

In hys.xv. chapyter good readers he wolde make men wene, that he suffycyentely proueth thre thynges. The tone is that it were none hurte to chaunge now this olde lawe. The secunde thynge is that it were great hurte to kepe it. The thyrde, that suche samples of the lawes of thys realme as I resembled vnto the suit ex officio, I resemble against reason, they be so farre vnlyke.

Into these thre poyntes therfore wyll I deuyde thys chapyter that the reader may the better se in what parte he is.

I shall reherse you fyrst here his whole wordes togyther, that he bryngeth for the fyrste poynte. Lo good readers these they be.

THen to the conuentynge of men before spyrytuall iudges ex officio, and wherupon mayster More sayth in his apology, fo, 219. that yf it were lefte, the stretes were lykely to swarme full of heretikes: Heryly I m[…]ruayle right moche at his sayeng therin: and that for this cause: It is certayne, that no man maye after the lawe be detected of heresye, but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before why he oughte so to be. For yf it be secrete in hys owne breste, none can be hys iudge but god onely, that is the sercher of man[…] herte. And yf any wyl […]d[…]owe, that he knoweth the ca[…]se, and wyl denounce hym as an heretyke therfore: thā it is reasō, yt he be taken as his accuser. And yf he wyll not aduow to be his accuser, yf y[…] to thynke that he doth yt of some malyce or crafte rather then for the trouth of the mater. And yf he saye he da[…]e not for fere of hi[…] lyfe auow yt, I haue shewed a meane in the.vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse how the wytnesse maye be saued from daunger, as by shewynge the mater to the kynge and hys counsayle, and that then yt is not to suppose nor so to thynke, but that they wyll pronyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe. And this remedye mayster More denyeth not to be conuenyent for this realme. And yet he wyll not assent, that a lawe be made that yt shall be so. And then yf the wytnesse wil not auow it, but an other wyl geue credence to hym and auow yt: then yt semeth reasonable, that they yt wyll gyue credence therto, a wyl reporte yt / be taken as accusers: takynge those wytnesse for theyr warraunte, yf yt be denyed.

In these wordes lo good readers you se, howe he proueth hys fyrste poynt, that of the chaūge of this law by puttynge awaye this suyt ex officio, wherin wythoute any specyall accuser, offerynge hym selfe as party, the suspecte may be called in before the iudge ex officio, that is to wyt by reason of his office: there could none harme growe at all.

And howe dothe he nowe proue vs this poynt? He proueth yt as you se fyrst by certain reason put & presupposed for a grounde / & then after that by a certayne order that hym […]elfe shortly diuyseth and setted vp vppon the same.

Hy[…] ground and his foundacion is this, yt is certayn he sayth that no man may after the law be detected of heresye / but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before / why he ought so to be.

Very trouth yt is that no man can be detected, except a man detect hym self, but yf some other se some thyng in hym wherfore he sholde seme nought, some one thinge or other that they whych perceyue it suspect hym therfore them selfe. And therfore as for this ground this good man and I wyll not greatly stryue Then foloweth his order that he dyuyseth & byesdeth vp theruppon thus.

And yf any wyll aduow that he knoweth the cause, and wyll denounce hym an heretyke therfore: then is yt reason that he be taken as his accuser.

This is a ryght good reason / and the spirituall lawe wyll not refuse so to take hym & accept hym for an accuser yf he will / and then wyll they not in that case vse the suit ex officio. For in that case it nedeth not. But nowe what yf he that knoweth it, & secretly detecteth it, peraduēture four or fyue and sometyme mo to, & yet not one of them al, wil openly be called an accuser, but wilbe content to be taken and knowē for a wytnesse, called in by the court & sworen, and to tell the trouth as of an necessyte, & not as accusers of theyr neyghbour of theyr own offre wyllyngly: what shall the ordynary do then? Agaynst this parel this good mā geueth vs this remedy.

If they wyll not be hys accusers, yt is to thynke that they do yt of some malyce or crafte, rather then for the trouth of the mater.

I wene good readers that there is no man but when he hereth this answere, he wold wene there were yet for the farther remedye some other more mater behynd. For what madde man wolde thynke that this were a suffycient remedy, so fully prouyded For thys mater, that yf there were any heretyques they could not fayle so fully to be detected by thys waye of accusacyon, that there sholde nede no suyte ex officio, bycause they that knowe yt maye eyther holde theyr peace yf they lyste, or ellys yf they wyll algates detecte any man, maye be taken and accepted for accusers / and yf they wyll not openly be taken so, then be taken for malycyouse and craftye, and therfore byleue theym not, but bydde theym lyke false harlottes hense and go gete theym home.

But howe shall we do yet for one thynge? For thoughe that theyre refusynge to bycome open accusers, were a coniecture to lede vs somewhat to byleue them false or malycyouse: yet were yt not so great a coniecture on that syde, nor so sure, but that we might be therin decey[…]ed and they bothe charytable and trew, and the man yt they detected a very perylouse heretyque in ve[…]y dede. And then for oughte that this man deuyseth yet, we sholde nede the suyte ex officio to buste oute this mater better / or ellys that man that they detected shall (yf he be suche as they sayde he was) teache heresyes styll, and do myche harme a great whyle.

Also good readers thys good man hathe no suche cause so sore to mysse truste suche a denouncer, onely bycause that he refuseth to be taken of his owne offre for a partye and an open accuser, consyderynge that he refuseth not to be broughte in by processe, and depose in ye parties owne presence as a wytnesse, and wyll be content that his deposycyons hym selfe standyng by be publyshed, & redde openly byfore ye world. And therfore any wyse man wold wene, yt this good man to proue that we shold […] […] not nede the suyte ex officio, yf he wolde make hys suyte by waye of accusacyon, suffycyent to serue in the stede, he had nede to haue diuised some […]arther thing thē this. But this good hoste of ours, prayeth you for this feste to be m[…]ry with such as you haue, for here is al your fare / sauyng that to make vs lyke this meate the better, & fyl our belyes somwhat the better ther wyth, he geueth vs therto one lytle messe of sauce to it, in shewynge vs a cause, wherfore it is good reason, that we shold geue theym no credēce that detecte a man of heresy, and yet wil refuse to become his opē accusers. And ye cause that he geueth vs is this.

F[…]r vf he say (sayth this good man) that he dare not for […]ere of his lyfe auow yt, I haue shewed a meane in the seuēth chapyter of the sayd treatyse / how the wytnesse may be saued from daūger, as by shewyng the mater to the kynge and his counsayle / and that the[…] it is not to suppose nor to thynke, but that they wyll prouyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesses in that behalfe.

Nowe good readers herde any man euer any reason made for suffycyent, by any man that any reason had in his hedde / and handeled so insuffycyently. Be this wyse reason he maketh as though no man detectynge any man of heresye, excepte he surmysed the mater of falshed & malyce, wolde refuse to be hys open accuser for any thynge saue for onely fere / nor for no lesse fere neyther then onely the fere of deth. And then for that fere, he hath as he sayth diuysed suffycyent remedye.

Now that none other thynge can set a man to make hym selfe a partye and an open ac[…]user, but onely fere[…] I wene there wyll no man graunte hym / and that no lesse fere then onely fere of deth, and adde fere of all bodyly harme thereto, that wyll I wene euery wyse man lesse graunt[…] hym.

But nowe let vs consyder whether the fere that hym selfe graunteth to be suffycyent, to let a detectour from takynge vppon hym to be an accuser, be so suffycyently prouyded for by thys good man, that yt muste nedes be, that by hys prouysyon that fere shall be quyte gone. For yf that yt maye be, that all hys prouysyon not wythstandynge, the mannys fere maye styll remayne in his harte / then may yt also be perdy, that be hys deteccyon neuer so trew, yet he maye for that fere, refuse to make hym selfe a partye and become an open accuser.

Consyder nowe therfore what is the remedye that he hath dyuysed in his seuenth chapyter. He reherseth yt here agayne, that vppon cōplaynt made to the kynge and his coūsayle it is not to suppose nor thīke, but yt they wold prouyde sufficiētly for thindemnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe.

I am content to graunte hym for the whyle, that they wyll suffycyently prouyde for thindempnyte of the wytnessys. But fyrst all this prouysyon is in our case here very nedeles. And his prouysyon in the seuynth chapyter of his dyuysyon, is brought in for another maner of mater / that ys to witte agaynst a prouisyon made in the spyrytull lawe, by whyche yt is there deuysed, that in some case for drede of perell that may fall to the wytnesses, the ordynary shall not suffre the ꝑtie that is detected, to knowe who hath wytnessed agaynste hym. And nowe wolde this good man bygyle his readers in this chapyter, & make theym wene that that specyall prouysyon in that one specyall case, whych prouysyon I wene was yet in Englande neuer put in vre, were a comen order in euery mannys case. But consyder good reader that our case is now, that the mā refuseth not to be a wytnesse / but is contente both to be sworen when he is as a witnesse called in, and to auowe then hys deposycyon trewe, byfore the iudge in the partyes awne presence / and if he maye so be vsed as a wytnesse, wyll neyther be afrayed nor a shamed, nor desyre to putte the kynges counsayle to any busynesse aboute the prouysyon of his indempnyte at all. And therfore in our case thys good mannys prouysyon deuysed for wytnesses, shall not nede for our wytnesses, yf he lette the suyt ex officio procede, and receyue them as onely witnesses.

But on the tother syde, yf this good man putte a way that suyt, and wyll receyue no man fyrste for a denouncer secretely, and after that for a wytnesse to, that wyl refuse at the begynnynge to make hym selfe a partye and bycome an open accuser / but though they were suche twenty wyll take theym al for false shrewes and putte theym to sylence, excepte some one of theym wyll take vppon hym the name and persone of an accuser: I saye that his prouysyon dothe not suffyse, not euyn in hys owne case of fere, to make euery trew man cōtent to accuse an heretyque / but that we muste eyther lette that heretyque alone and lette hym go make mo, or ellys muste we vse the suyte ex officio styll.

That is not so sayeth this good man. For yf he bycome an accuser I haue diuysed a remedye for hys indempnyte. That is well & properly sayde. But we speke not of hys losse but of hys fere. Why what shold he nede to fere whan he can take no losse? hath this good man neuer herd in his lyfe that some man hathe ben wurse aferde than hurt? a man may fere perdy though he fere causelesse. And yf he so do styl thē wil he not bycome thaccuser, & angre hym whome he fereth, though the man be boūden, and ryghte good suertyes with hym, that he shall do his accuser no bodyly harme at all.

His fere is also for all the prouysyon that can be made by suffycyent suertye, not all causelesse yet. For he may well and with good reason fere, that he that is bounden may by some secrete shrewes of hys acquayntaūs murdre hym / and that in such wise as when he doth it, he may wene & haue hope that it shal neuer be knowen for his dede, nor he therby lese forfaiture of his bounde.

There can no man (ye wote wel) also kyll a nother, but with the parel of his owne lyfe. And yet is there dayly many a man, that standeth for al that in drede, that a nother man wil for euyll will and malyce des[…]roye hym. And the comen lawes of thys realme so farre forth alowe and approue his drede, for al that his enimy is vpon losse of his own lyfe boundē to the contrarye, that vpon his owne othe, they cōpell the party to be bounden with other suertyes for hym in certayne sommes of money, that he shal not. And yet the man yt fered byfore, may peraduenture be fullferd styll, that his enymye wyll as well aduenture the forfayture of his frendes money, as he before fered that he wolde aduēture his owne lyfe. But yet bycause yt maye be that his resspecte vnto frēdshyppe, wyl temper his respecte of malyce, and make him loth, for hurtynge of one whome he hateth, to hurte twayne whome he loueth: the man is content syth he can go no farther, to take that maye be goten, and so to sew for such suertye, to lyue therby, though not in ful suerty, nor clene oute of fere, yet in suerty somwhat the more, and in fere somewhat the lesse.

But now this man y• doth detecte this heretyke, agaynst whō he fereth to make hym self an opē aduersary & accuser, is not in the case byfore he become his accuser, but maye sytte styll you se well and hold his peace, and nedeth not to make that heretyque his aduersarye by his wylfull accusacyon / whyche yf he sholde ones do, he wyll neuer after happely whyle he lyueth, reken hym selfe so sure from bodyly harme that he may after hap to haue by him and by his meanes, as he wyl reken to be in yf he accuse him not / nor by such opē accusacyon geue hym an open occasion of displeasure / no not for all the prouysyon that all the world can imagine for his suertie / except onely suche suertye as a pore man deuysed ones for him self, when he came to a kyng & cōplayned howesore he fered that suche a seruaunt of his wold kyll hym. And the king bode hym fere not felow, for I promyse ye if he kyllthe he shalbe hanged within a lytle whyle after. Naye my lyege lord ꝙ the pore soule I beseche your grace let hym be hanged for it a great whyle afore. For I shall neuer lyue in the lesse fere tyll I se hym hanged fyrste. Now will this good man happely say, that this maner of reasonynge shold proue not onely yt a man for fere wold refuse to be an accuser, but also to be a witnesse / & then were it agaynst my selfe to.

That is not so in euery case. For comēly no man is in such wise angry with them that are in a mater wytnesses agaynst hym, & may seme to witnesse agaynst theyr willys, for the necessyte of theyre othes wherto they may be or may seme to be compelled, as with hym whō he seeth willyngly no man calling him, come forth of his own offre to accuse him. And therfore ye cases be very far vnlyke. But yet in some cases when the partye yt is detected is knowen for myghtye, and for so maliciouse therwith, that he wyll of lykelyhed hate & myschyefe any man by whome he taketh any harme, though the tother man do yt neuer so myche agaynst his wyll: in suche cases the fere maye be such in dede, that it maye peraduenture cause some that ellys wolde tell the trewth yf he sholde neuer knowe them, for drede of his dyspleasure to be forsworen, rather then abyde thaduenture, what so euer prouysyon any man sholde deuyse for theyr suertye.

And for suche case yf it happened was ye law made, which in his seuēth chapyter this man so sore complayneth of, that the party detected shold in suche case be kepte fro the knoweledge of ye wytnesses / & as (with the prouisyons that are in that law made farther) very good reason is that he sholde / and therfore is euen here that poynt of his seuenth chapyter of hys deuisyon, and all that euer he can farther deuyse for the farther defence therof, full answered here by ye way.

But nowe sayeth this good man therto, that I denye not in myne apologye, that remedye of his dyuyse to be conuenyent for this realme / & yet I wyl not he sayth assent that a law be made that yt shalbe so.

In this tale this good honest man sayth vntrew. The wordes in myne apologye wheruppon he taketh hold to say, yt I denye not his deuyse to be conuenyent for thys realme be these.

His deuyse though peraduēture yt wolde serue in some one lande, wolde yet not serue in some other. And they that made that lawe of the chyrche, made yt as it myght serue most generally thorow chrystendome / where as this deuyse though it myght serue in Englande, myght not haue serued in many places of Almayne that are peruerted synnys / not euen whyle that mater was in a mamerynge byfore the chaunge was made. But surely that same law and other of old made agaynste heresyes, yf they had ben in Almayne dewely folowed in the begynnynge, the mater had not there gone oute at length to suche an vngracyouse endynge.

These be lo the wordes of myne apology the.xlii. chapyter folio. 232, wherof this man taketh holde to say, that I denye not in myne apology, yt his deuice is cōueniēt for this realme. For in these wordes in dede I do not denye it / but than you se well I do not graunte it neyther.

But afterwarde in the self same chapyter, the very nexte lefe after agaynste the sufficiency of his deuice write I these wordꝭ folowing.

And on the tother syde, the remedy that he deuyseth for the suertye of the wytnesses, sholde not peraduenture make the men so bolde, as in a cause of heresie to medle in y• mater against some maner of man[…]but that they rather wold for theyr owne surety, kepe theyr own tongys styll, than with all the suretie that could be foūden them bysyde, haue theyr persons dysclosed vnto the partye.

Lo good reders the thynge that he sayth I deny not, bycause that in the fyrst wordes I neyther sayed ye nor nay (for I sayd not yt it myght serue in england / but that though it myghte serue in Englande, yet myght it not serue in Almayne / which wordes I myght haue sayd, though I had in ye nexte lyne before, expressely sayd yt it myght not serue in Englād) y• thyng do I (as you se) forthwith in ye nexte lefe well & playnely denye. And yet you se yt he sayth here agayne in thys boke, that I denye it not. This good man semeth not very shame fast lo, but yf his logyke lede hym to thynke that this were a good argument. In these wordꝭ he denyeth it not: ergo he denyeth it not. which argumēt is euen as good as this. He denyeth it not in one place, ergo he denyeth it not in no place.

Now where he sayth that though I denye not his deuyce to be conuenyent, yet I wyll not assent that a law be made that it shall be so: surely as mych of his deuice as I thynke conuenyent for the realme, so myche therof wyll I not be agaynste that a lawe be made that it shalbe so. For where this good man thynketh it conuenyēt for this realme, that he which is detected or accused of heresye, sholde be bounden & fynde suretyes, that he shall not hurt neyther accuser nor wytnesse: I wyll not be agaynst it that a law be made that it shalbe so But yet though that law were made (syth for all that lawe there wold remayne a feare behynde in ye mennes hartes, for whose sa[…]fe garde suche surtyes sholde be foūden, and perell and dayngeour to, suffycyēt to make them drawe backe from makynge them self in heresye open accusours, and in some case from berynge wytnesse also, but yf they thought theyr names sholde frō the person agaynst whom they shold wytnesse, be surely kepte close and vnknowen) I wolde not assent for my parte to put awaye the sayd law that he speketh of in his seuenth chapyter of his deuisyon, for chaūces that myght herafter happē. And mych lesse wolde I graunte to putte awaye the suyte agaynst heretikes ex officio, into his deuice of onely open accusers, for the harme yt wold vndowtedly dayely growe, by the encreace of heretykes & hynderaūce of the catholyke fayth / no more than though I blame not the law, by whiche he that is aferde of kyllyng shall haue his aduersary boūdē to ye peace, I wolde yet when the tother is so bounden by recognisaunce, haue that lawe stande in stede of the tother, by whyche he shall yf he kyll that man, fall therby ferther into the daynger of hangynge.

And yet this his gaye gloryouse deuice, that he deuysed in his formar boke, and here now repeteth agayne: no man nedeth to geue him any great thank for. For who knew not that all way, that who so euer be aferde, may desyre & haue surety for the peace, yf he fere him self of his lyfe or bodyly harme, & may aske it of course vpon his othe as soone as he is aferd (and soner perdye this mā deuiseth it not) of ye kyngꝭ ordinary iustices, without any other ferther suit, to trouble the kyngꝭ grace or his coūsayle withall.

But yet wyll all this surety f[…]ndyng as you se, neuer so take away ye feare of harme from mēnes hartes, but yt they wyll rather forbere to be accusours, thā by the becoming of an open accusour runne in ye dedely malyce of that man, by whom for all his bond & all his suretyes founden, they fere still alway yt they shal take hurt.

But here wyll happely this good man tell me nowe, that I am a man importune, & one whom no reasō can satisfye / & byd me therfore go deuyse some ferther thyng myne owne selfe […]or[…]e[…]pe of the mater, and assay also what ferther thynge any other folke can f[…]nd therin. And if neyther myne own wyt nor no mānes els can fynd no ferther remedy, wherfore shold I than blame hym whan he deuiseth as full […] r[…]medy as any mannes reason can find. Forsoth I can with any wyt that I haue, nor I wene no more can no man els / fynd no ferther remedy than he fyndeth here hym selfe. But yet syth the ferthest that he can fynd is very far vnsufficiēt, with chaūge of the suit ex officio to kepe heresyes from great encreace, and preserue ye catholyke fayth: I can therfore fynd at hand a mych nerer remedy than this that he fetcheth so farre that is to wyt to let his new deuicꝭ passe and let the old law stand styll[…]

And thus you se good readers y• this pyece wherein he so bosteth the prouisyon that he hath deuysed so suffycyent to delyuer the accusers frofere, leueth theym so in drede & fere styll, that though there were no lette but the fere of bodely harme: yet of many trew men that wyl detecte and bere wytnesse, ye shold fynde but very few that wolde bycome accusers.

But now though there were foū den prouysyon good and sure, to dryue out of thaccusers harte all fere of bodyly hurt: yet are there many that dare secrely detecte, and by whome ye ordynarye shall knowe who can tell more, and wyll also yf they be called and sworen, and wyll not vncalled and vnsworen, tell no tale at all / and they them selfe also wyl neyther accuse nor yet bere wytnesse neyther, nor so myche as haue it knowen that euer thei spake word therin. And that not for any fere of theyre lyfe, for whiche this good man fy[…]deth as he sayth a remedy / but for losse of theyr lyuynge, for whiche he fyndeth none, nor neuer ones thought theron. And yet is the lyuynge to some folke, as lyefe almost as the lyfe. And theyr lyuynge they feare vtterly to lose (yt they gete peraduenture by them whō yet of cheryte for theyr amendement they detecte) yf they were ones perceyued any thing to medle in ye mater.

And yet as I sayde before euery wyse man well woteth there are many other affeccyons bysyde all suche feare, that lette men to become accusers in heresye, and yet letteth them not to do otherwyse truely and charytably theyr dewtye, both in secrete detectyng of them, and also in open berynge wytnesse agaynst them, whan they be called forth and cōmaunded by ye court to depose, that wyll neuer as I sayed of theyr owne offre make theym selfe a party, and openly become theyr accuser.

Now what if there were but two wy[…]nesse of the mater, suche as were well able playnely to proue ye thyng, yf neyther of both maye be herd but yf the tone shold become thaccusour: whan the tone were made party, thā were the profe lost. But we shal not nede myche I warraunt you to care for this case. For of thē both, you shal haue neyther nother that wyll.

How be it yet hath this good mā at last founden a good way for that. For lo syr thus he sayth.

And than yf the wytnesse wyll not auow it, but an other wyll geue credence to hym and auo[…] it: than it semeth reasonable that they that wyll geue credence therto and wyll reporte it, be taken a[…] accusers / takynge those wytnesses for theyr warraunt yf they be denyed.

If he thynke it lykely that none of them wyll become accusours that were present and herde it them selfe: than is it yet lesse lykely that he wyll become the accusour, that hereth it but at a seconde hand.

And therfore me thynketh that this deuice is not mych wyser, than the deuice that a good felow deuised ones for his neyghbour, that had a greate hylloke in his close / whiche for planynge of y• ground he coūsayled hym to haue it away. Mary ꝙ his neyghbour I muste carye it than so farre, that it were lesse losse to me to geue away ye close & all. Mary neyghbour ꝙ the tother, I shall soone fynde a way for that. For I shal deuise a pronisiō yt it shalbe had away & yet neuer caryed hense. For euen there as it lyeth lo, dygge me a great pytte, & cary it neuer ferther, but berye it euen in that. Where shall I thā lay that hepe ꝙ his neyghbour that cometh out of the pytte? At that the tother st[…]dyed a lytle. But whan he hadde well bythought hym: mary ꝙ he euen digge another greate pytte vnder that, and bery me that hepe there.

So this man wyll in any wyse lo, haue awaye this hyllocke, this suyte ex officio, that he sayeth dothe here myche hurte. howe shall we haue yt away say we without yet mych more hurte? Good remedy sayth this good man shortely shall I deuyse. Putte accusers in the stede of that suyt, and they shall do myche better. who shall be thaccusers say we? Mary sayth he they that here them. They wyll not say we bycome accusers in no maner case. No wyl they sayeth he, then be they but false shrewes. what remedy then say we to supply the sayde suyt. A redy waye sayeth he, take some other that heareth the tother that herd the heretike speke.

He will myche lesse bycome accuser saye we, then they that herd yt theym selfe. what hath this good man farther to saye then, bydde vs take then a nother that wyll. And euer we folowe styll & say we shall neuer fynde hym / and that word he denyeth not, but alwaye byddeth vs go gete one. And now yf the second man were cō tent, or the fyftenth after: yet hath this man marred all thys mater with one thynge. For you wote well that yf ye wytnesse that sayth he was present and herd it his owne eares wyll refuse to bycome thaccusar hym self: this good man wyll that ye ordynary shall take hym for malycyouse or false. Now than yf we gete with longe labour some other man to accuse: yet hym that herde it and wold not be thaccuser hym selfe, syth the bysshoppe must take hym alwaye for malycyouse or false in the mater, he maye neuer accept hym therin for a wytnesse. For yf we take hym for fraudulēt & maliciouse to the partye / this mannes credence is tenne tymes lesse in all reason, than his is that afterwarde deposeth to his harme, where he was fyrst forsworē, whyle he wold fayne haue done hym good / and that man wolde not this good man byleue after in no wyse.

And thus bothe for the tone cause and the tother, for lacke of an accusour and credence of the wytnes, you se playnely good readers that by this mannes deuice, yf we dygge vp and bery this hylloke ex officio, we shall whan we haue all done say he what he lyste, make & leue that neuer wyll than be voyded, as great an hyllok[…] of heretykes in the stede.

And this you se good readers that this good man sheweth vs yet no le[…] but that for any thynge that he sayth here, yf the suit ef officio were chaū ged as he wolde haue it, and in stede therof truste all vnto accusours, of whyche for any thynge that he deuiseth we were lykely to fynde few, & as I feare me veryly rather none at all: it were well lykely to come to passe as I sayd, that y• stretes sholde swarme full of heretykes, ere euer they were conuēted and repressed by his way. Of which sayenge of myne as mych meruaile as he saith he hath: yet sheweth he nothynge (as you se) wherfore he shold meruaile of it / nor to the thynges that I preue it wyth / he no more answereth, than though he neuer herd them.

Whyche dealynge of his you may clerely perceyue, euyn by the very same lefe, wherin I wrote those wordes of which he meruayleth so mych and hath so lytell cause. For there lo my wordes be these.

For surely yf the conuentynge of heretykes ex officio were lefte & chaunged into another order, by whyche no man sholde be called, be he neuer so sore suspected, nor by neuer so many men detected, but yf some man make hym selfe party agaynste hym as hys accusour: the stretes were lykely to swarme full of heretykes, byfore that ryght few were accused, or peraduenture any one eyther.

These were lo my wordes in myne apology against which you haue herd what he sayth. Than bycause he shold not nede to meruayle at the mater, I shew by & by what maketh me so to say. For there it foloweth thus.

For what so euer the cause be, it is not vnknowen I am sure, that many wyll gyue to a iudge secrete informacyon, of such thinges as though they be trew, yet gladly he wyll not or per […]uenture dare not, be opēly knowē that the mater came out by hym.

Consyder here good readers that as to bycome open accusars, I speke here of two lettes. One y• men wyll not, another that some men dare not. And yet that they dare not / I put as the more rare & more seldome. Now cometh thys good answerer, and for the more seldome, yt is to wyt where they dare not, he deuiseth a remedy, whych seldome yet or neuer, suffycyentely shall serue the mater. And the tother cause that I call moost commune as in very dede it is: that cause he neyther denyeth nor any one word speketh of it, but softely slynketh besyde it, as though he hadde neuer redde yt. what maner of answerynge good readers call you this?

More ouer lest he myght deny me that I sayde trewe therin: I layed there for the profe the playne comen experyence, whiche this good man hym selfe I am very sure (but yf he be a recluse and haue ben all his lyfe) knoweth well to be true / and in dede he sayth not nay.

Then go I there farther yet, and I declare what profyte there cometh to the commen weale, to geue suche folke herynge / such folke I saye as this good man wolde haue reiected backe, and taken for false or malycyouse, bycause they come secretly and wyll not theym selfe openly bycome accusers. Therin lo these are my wordes.

[…]And yet shal he sometyme geue the namys of dyuerse other / whyche beynge called by the iudge, and examyned as wytnesses agaynst theyr wyllys, both knowe and wyll also depose the trouthe, and he that fyrste gaue enformacyon also / and yet wil neuer one of theym wyllyngly make hym selfe an open accuser of the party, nor dare peraduenture for his earys.

This thynge good readers euery man euery where fyndeth trewe that any order of iustyce in his hande. And in these wordes you se well I tolde hym there ones agayn, not onely that some dare not, but that though men dare they wyll not (excepte the thynge do pryuately touche theym selfe) for the causes of the commen weale become open accusers. And as I agayne there tolde yt hym: so he here agayne forgeth yt.

Then go I yet forthe a lytle farther, and these are there my wordes.

And this fynde we not onely in heresye, but in many temporall maters amonge our selfe / wherof I haue had experyence many a tyme and oft, both in the dysclosynge of felonyes, and somtyme of myche other oppressyon vsed by some one man or twayn in a shyre, wherby all theyr neyghbours sore smarted / and yet not one durste openly complayne.

Lo thus I there declared good reders by cōmen eyperyence, that if mē shold do as this man here deuyseth, reiecte euery man for malycyouse & crafty yt wil geue secrete informaciō, but yf he be cōtent to bycome an accuser opēly: there sholde myche harme growe therof / not in heresyes onely, but besyde yt in myche other myschief to. To al this gere you se good readers that this good man playeth as though he cāe in in a mūmery, for any one word he sayth / whyche shold not so haue scaped hym ye may be very sure, but that he sawe full surely that he coulde neuer answere them. For though he wold haue denyed all that I speke of myne owne experyence, yet in the lyke thynges so many men of worshyp dayly do proue the thynge trew that I tell yt for, that he could nothyng wynne in his cause by al that denyenge. And yet dyd I not myne own selfe my besynesse in such wyse, but that I can yf nede requyre proue it playne inough. But of thys gere as I sayd he denyeth nothynge, nor answereth nothyng neyther thervnto. And sure maye you be yt if he had coulde, he wold not haue fayled to haue done the tone.

And therfore good readers my wordes stand styll so sure, that thys good man hath not yet nor neuer shal whyle he lyueth, be able to voyde them with all the crafte he can, but that yf men wolde be so farre ouersene as in thys mater to folow hys deuice, to put awaye thys olde lawe the suit ex officio, and truste that all wolde be well holpen by meane of open accusers: it wolde at lengthe come to passe the thyng that I haue sayd, that ye stretes were well lykely to swarm full of heretikes, ere euer that ryght few shold be therof accused, or peraduenture any one heretyke eyther.

And now good chrysten readers syth you se so clerely, that by suche chaungynge of that law, ye catholyke fayth shold decaye: I care not now greately what he saye for his second parte, syth he hath so fowle an ouer throwe in the fyrste, vppon whiche fyrste parte all the mater hangeth. For though he coulde in his seconde parte make you now good profe, not onely that there myght, but also that there dyd & hath done, greate harme grow by that suyte, whiche he shall neuer proue you whyle he liueth / but at sundry tymes & that of late where it hath ben so surmysed, it hath alway be proued the contrary; yet syth you se well that by this chaunge that he deuyseth, while we wold helpe these harmes that he speketh of, that is to wytte that no man sholde be conuented of heresye causelesse. we shold by the prouydyng for that harme, be the cause of farre more hurt and harme in the stede / that is to wyt, that when that suyte were so chaunged, the catholyque fayth sholde dekaye, and heretyques so sholde encrease, that by such insurreccions as they haue here byfore made, not in other countreys onely, but in this realme of Englād haue also attēpted y• same, put yt vppon the parell & assey to robbe spoyle and kyll also myche innocent people openly, and tourne folke from the fayth by force, and worke other maner of maystryes many mo, suche a[…] myne harte abhorret so myche as to reherse or name. Syth euery man may se I say, that suche harme were in parel to fal by this chaunge of his[…] there wyll I wene no wyse man folow his fonde deuyse in puttyng this law away, all though he proued wel in his seconde parte, that there were harme in the kepynge / whyle he can not defende the cō […]rorye, but yt there were incōparably mych more harme in the leuyn[…]e.

But by what waye he proueth y• there is great hurt in the kepyng, that shall we now cōsyder. After whyche well examyned / I shall agayne retourne good readers efte soon vnto the fyrst, that this suyt ex officio takē onys away, the stretes w[…]re lykely to swarme full of heretykes. And as clere as you se that ponte al redy, and that this man hath therin neyther answered nor ones touched suche thynges as your selfe se that I sayd therin before: yet shall I make yt you anon, with the farther foly of his deuyse double (ere we deꝑte) so clere.

Concernynge the seconde parte, thus lo thys man begynneth.

But […]o putte the partye that […] complayned on, […] answere, and to condempne hym, yf he saye contrarye to that the wytnesse haue sayde, not knowynge who […]e the wytnesse, ne who be hys accusere: yt s[…] meth not reasonable to be accepted for a law. For as I haue sayde in the sayd treatyse, yf he that is accused knewe theyr names that accused him, he myght percase allege and proue so great and so vehemen[…] cause of rancour and malyce in thē that accuse hym, or beare wytnesse agaynst hym, that theyr sayenge[…] by no law ought to stande agaynst hym: as yf there were two men that had sworn the deth of an other[…] and bycause they can not brynge yt about, they ymagyne howe they maye brynge hym to all the shame and dexacyon that they can, and theruppon they apeche hym of heresye: yf he in thys case knew[…] theyr names, he myght proue theyr rancour and malyce. And bycause he knoweth them not, he can not proue yt. And also the wytnes may be such, as sha[…] haue his landes by eschete after hys deth.

And yf it be sayde, that these cases fall so seldome[…] that yt ought lytell to be pondred: so may yt be said lyke wyse, that it falleth but seldome, that the wytness[…] in heresye stand in any feare of them, that they accuse. And then to make a generall lawe to prohybyte all men, that they shulde not haue knoweledge of the wytnes in no case, yt is not reasonable.

Now good readers one thynge opened vnto you whiche is trouth, which thys man of wylynesse hydeth from you, and wold make you wene the trouth were cōtrary: deuyde after that knowen all this myschyefe & vnreasonabylnes that he telleth vs here into.xx. partes / & with the bare knowledge of ye one trouth, nynetene and a halfe of all hys false fayned mychyefes are gone.

The trouth is good chrysten readers, that except onely one case, wher of he speketh in his seuēth chapiter of his deuysyon, where to let the partie know the wytnesses were parell, to whyche I haue answered hym bothe in myne apologye fyrste, and synnys euen in this same chapyter byfore: elles in all other cases, the wytnesses, whose deposiciōs shalbe takē & layed agaynste hym to proue hym an heretyque, and vppon whyche deposycyon sentence of condemnynge hym for an heretyke shall be gyuen agaynste hym, he shall se theym and shall here theyre deposycyons to. So that yf there be any suche great causes, as this good man here ymagyneth that myght happen, of enimyte, or hope of lucre, or any mych lesse either, the iudge both may and wyll cō syder them before the sentence.

But why shall he not know them forth with, when he is fyrs[…]e conuented? For yt were not well done he shold, no more then the kynges coū sayle that many tymes call malefactours byfore them vppon secrete informacyon fyrste, vse alway there by & by to dysclose who told them the mater and what / whych if they shold and by and by brynge hym forth, then though the suspecte wold cōfesse happely some thynge therby the sooner: yet sholde it be but that thynge which he thought the tother knew. where as whyle ye thyefe knoweth not who hath gyuen the informacyon, and yet thynketh by his examynacyon that among his many felowes though they be theuys all, yet some false shrewes there be, he mysse gesseth among and weneth yt were one where in dede yt was a nother / & so in stede of one felonye, to lyght there cometh twayne.

But at a nother time & in an other place, byfore he shall haue any iudgement theruppon, he shall cōmenly se them sworen and here them speke to.

And here I […]y cōmenly, bycause that sometyme percase in poynt of iugement he shall not haue thē brought forth and sworen in his presence, nor ꝑaduenture neuer heare them speke in the mater. For they may happen to be some, y• deposed and died to before hym selfe were taken / and some happely that were his felowes cōfessed his felonyes at the galowes, when they were on the lather. And some ꝑaduenture bycame approuers vhen they were caste, and called for a coroner / and the lawe kepynge no store of him but hangyng hym vp forthwith, vseth yet his informacyon & all these other to, whych may happen to cōe so many to gether & so likely to be trew, that his lyfe may go therfore, and he well worthy to, and yet neyther hym selfe nor thenqueste neuer here any one witnesse sworen, neither the fyrst nor the second, neyther at thendyghtynge nor at hys arreyghnynge neyther.

Nowe maye yt so fortune in lyke wyse and sometyme so doth it to, that folke some good and honeste depose in cause of heresye agaynst some one man that is detected therof. And happely there depose also some other of hys owne affynyte / and in deposynge agaynst that one man detecte by theyr deposycyons, a noth[…]r man of ye selfe same cōpanye yt is then walked farre of, no man can tel where, ye appereth playnly vpon al theyr othes ꝑaduenture the very chyefe heretyke of all. If he happe longe after when these wytnesses be dede, to come agayne in to ye coūtrey and teache heresyes a freshe, and one or twayne detecte hym / they shall now be sworen and shall be brought forthe face to face byfore hym, that he shall obiecte agaynste theym what he can byfore his iudgement passe. But yet those olde deposycyons shall not serue for nought, but are admonicula probationis, though the men be dede. And agaynst all reason were it that it were otherwyse. Howe be yt what they sayde he shall here / and also who they were.

Lo this is good chrysten readers the maner of that suyte, wherof this good man wold here make vs wene the contrarye, and that men were cō menly condempned of heresye by deposycyons of those men whome he sholde neuer knowe. And therfore syth the trouth is in dede, that all the wrong whych he speketh of, he groū deth vpon a playn vntrouth, though he make not thys lye wyttyngly him self, but hering some folke say so, weneth that yt were trewe: yet is as I sayde before all his reason spylt / and as I tolde you the harme yt he sayeth in that poynt if he shold dyuyde it into […]wenty partes, xix. partes and an halfe were nowe clerely gone. For there remayned but y• one case which he wolde haue here seme comen, and yet in his seuēth chapytre of his fyrst boke he declareth hym selfe that the case is but specyall, that is to wytte, where the witnesses are kepte away for fere / elles in all the remanaunt this mannys harmes that he layeth here agaynste the law be very clerely gone.

And therfore his two gay cases of swerynge a mannys deth, & wynnynge a mānys land by eschete, haue place but in the specyall point of that one specyall lawe. And yet are his two cases suche as well consydered, are of no great effect. For yf we shold regard those two cases: ye publyshynge of the wytnesses names wold seldome remedy the mater. For yt myght then as well hap, that such folke myghte hyre other that sholde beare suche false wytnesse as do the thynge theym selfe, and of lykelyhed so wolde they rather do.

But seynge that his cases for the farre fetchynge and lykelyhed of so seldome fortunynge, were lykely to be takē for fonde: yet for the fauour of his owne deuysynge he was lothe to scrape theym out, but excuseth the dyuysynge of them thus.

And yf yt be sayde that these cases fall so seldome that yt ought lytle to be pondered: so may it be sayd lyke wyse that yt falleth but seldome that the wytnesses in heresye stand in any fere of theym that they acc[…]se.

Nowe yf thys answere of hys were good & trew, yt it happeth as seldome that the wytnesses stand in any such feare: then he soyleth hi[…] owne reason hym selfe. For than hathe he no cause to complayne for the law to kepe the wytnesse close, made but for to serue in that specyal seldome case, where it happeth such feare to fall.

And therfore is hys laste cause veryly not very shamefaste, where he maketh as though the lawe were made generall, to prohybyte all men that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesses in no case.

And as for in this poynte of hys, wheruppon all his whole mater hangeth, to shew you that he sayth playn vntrew, and groundeth all this gere of alwaye kepynge wytnesses close, vppon a playne open lye: I wyll for thys tyme take none other wytnesses agaynste hym but hys owne playne open wordes. For in his seuenth chapyter of hys dyuysyon, lo thus good readers he sayth.

And in the chapyter there, that begynneth Statuta quedam, it is decreed / that yf the byshoppe or other enquerours of heresye, se that any greate daunger myghte come to the accusour[…] or wytnes of heresye by the great power of theym that be accused: that then they maye commaunde, that the names of the accusours or wytnesse shall not be shewed but to the bysshoppe or enquerours / or suche other lerned men as be called to them, and that shall suffyce / though they be not shewed to the party. And for the more indempnyte of the sayde accusours and wytnes it is there decreed / that the byshoppe or enquerours may enioyne such as they haue shewed the names of such wytnes vnto / to kepe them close vppon payne of excommunycacion, for dysclosynge that secrete without theyr lycens. And surely this is a sore law / that a man shalbe condempned / and not know the names of them that be causers therof.

Now good chrysten readers here you se playnely by his own wordes, that the cause of that law is specyall, & serueth but where as there is feare that the wytnesses myghte stande in dayngeour, by reason that the person detected were a man of great myght and power, which happeth very seld and almost neuer tyll it b[…] well nygh paste remedy. And therfore now you se by these wordes of hys owne, that those other wordꝭ of his are to shamfull, where he now sayth here, that ye law is generall, & forbedeth all men that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesse in no case. vpon my fayth except this good man se better how to salue this sore than I se: I wolde not haue wryten such another poynt in my boke, for more than all the paper coste and the prentynge to.

But nowe as I saye, syth you se that al these gre[…]es of his be gone saue in this one onely case of so great probable feare, whyle he groundeth all the remanaunt vppon a greate open vn[…]rewth: it is you se well a very seldome gryefe that is lefte. For I neuer sawe, nor to my remembraunce[…] redde, nor trust in god neuer shall se the nede, that euer any great man who[…] folke neded to fere, was condemned in thys realme for heresye, saue onely syr Hugh olde castle ones in the tyme of kyng Henry the.v. that was than lorde Cobbam / nor yet he neyther, tyll that thorowe his heresye he fell to treason to, and wolde haue ben the captayne of heretykes in a sodayne traytorouse insurreccyon.

And therfore as for thys harme that this good man telleth vs here, that ryseth by the suite ex officio in heresye, this poynte is as you se both reasonable yf it happed, and in lawe suffycyently prouyded fore / and yet besyde y• so selde happeth here in this realm, yt it was foly for hym to speke therof / and yet no more toucheth in dede the suite ex officio, thanne yf the suit were bygon and pursued by some great man, that wolde & fered not to professe hym selfe for accuser. And thus is this case vtterly nothīg to purpose / & all the remanaūt is (as you se also by his owne wordes proued) grounded vpon great vntrouth. And therfore all this yt he hath sayd set asyde for nought: let vs now se what other harme the good man fyndeth ferther. Lo good readers therin thus he sayth.

Also syr Tho. More denieth not, but that by reason of the law, ex de heretici[…] ca. Ad abolendam, which is recyted in the.vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse […] a man may be dreuen […]o a purgacyon wythout any offence in hym, or be accursyd, as yf he be notably suspected, and yet not gylty, as it may well be: and yet he wyll not condescende, that that lawe shulde be chaunged, but sayth in fortyfyenge therof, that veryly he thynketh, that he whiche can not be proued gylty in heresy, and yet vseth such maner of wayes, that all hys honest neyghbours wene he were one / & therfore in theyr cōscyence dare not swere that he is any other / is well worthy to do some penaunce. Truely thys is a merueylous persuasion, that a mā […]hulde be put to hys purgacyon / bycause hys neyghbours dare not swere that he is no heretyke.

Now good readers bycause thys good man begynneth here to fortifye hys worde, wyth that that I dyd not in my sayd.xl. chapyter of myne apologye denye, that a man may be dreuen to a purgacyon wythout any offence in hym or be accursed, as yf he be notably suspected & yet not gylty: I wyll fyrst brynge you forth myne own wordes wryten in the sayd chapyter / and afterwarde than shall we se whyther he can take suche greate holde vppon my wordes, as he wold it sholde seme. Lo good readers these are my wordes. folio.220.

It may be somtyme (albe it very seld it happeth) that in heresie vpon other vehement suspycyons wythout wytnesses, a man may be put to hys purgacyon, and to penaunce also yf he fayle therof / whyche thynge why so many sholde now thynke so harde a lawe as thys pacyfyer sayth there do I can not se / nor those wyse men neyther that made the law. And yet were they many wyse men / and not onely as wyse, but peraduenture many mo also in nomber, than those that thys pacyfyer calleth many now, that as he sayth now do fynde the faute. For though it be alledged in the extra. de hereticis: yet was that law made in a generall counsayle. And veryly me thynketh that he whyche can not be proued gylty in heresye, and yet vseth suche maner of wayes, that all hys honest neighbours wene he were one in dede, and therfore dare not swere that in theyr conscyence they thynke hym any other: is well worthy to do some panaūce for that maner of byhauour, wherby he geueth al other men occasion to take hym for so noughty.

Now good readers where thys man taketh me that I say a man may be dreuen to his purgacyon wythout offence: you se well I say not so / but I say that he doth a great offence, & well wurthy were to be dreuē to his purgacyō & to do penaūce to, if he be not able to purge hym selfe / but haue vsed hym selfe so lyke an heretyke in all good folkes opiniō, yt he can fynd no good folke yt dare in theyr cōsciēce swere that they thynke other wyse. This saye I is a great offence and worthy to dryue hym to this poynte. And this good man sayth that I denye not, but that he maye by the law be dreuyn to it without offence.

And where as he sayth I denye not that he may be dreuē therto without wytnesse: wherfore not I praye you? For the suspycyons beyng proued by wytnesses, to be notable and vehemēt, wyll they not be cause sufficyent to dryue hym to pourge hym selfe of that infamy, or els to do penaūce for bryngyng hym selfe therin to, but yf there be wytnessys of hys expresse heretycall wordes?

No sayth this good man, & meruayleth yt I could thynk this any reason. But why he shold̄ so meruayle at y• mater, or why I shold be ashamed to thinke so, therof telleth vs this good man no tale at all, but onely sayth, Truely thys is a meruelous persuasion, that a man sholde be put to his purgacyon bycause hys neyghbours dare not swere that he is none heretyke.

Meruelouse god where was this mannys mynde whan he wrote these wordes? do I say yt he shall be put to his purgaciō, bicause his neighbours wyl not swere with him? nay I say y• whā there be by wytnesses sworen byfore his face, suspicions of heresie ꝓued vpō hym: thā may thordinary put hym to such purgacyon, to proue whyther they wyll swere wyth hym or no. For whan they wyll not but refuse it / what mad man wold say that he shalbe put to that purgacyon thā, whan he hath fayled therof, and yt all redy paste. This man speketh here as one that perceyued no pyece of the mater.

For where as I declare that he is in great offence yt so vseth hym self, yt none of his honest neighbours dare swere / that in theyr conscyences he is any other than an heretyke: this mā taketh it as though they that sholde swere wyth hym in his purgacyon, sholde precysely swere that he were none heretyke / where as theyr othe shall not be what he is in dede, but what them selfe thynke of hys othe / they shall not swere that he is none heretyke, but that they byleue that he hath sworen trew, in denyeng tharticles sayd vnto hys charge. Lyke as in the wageour of a lawe, they shall not swere that the defendaunt oweth not the money, but that they byleue that he swereth treuth.

I meruayle in good fayth yt thys good man handeleth thys mater in this maner, & without any tellynge why, meruayleth so mych yt I wold thynke that law reasonable.

But surely though he coulde make me a proper reason for his part, and my selfe another for the same syde also: yet wolde I thynke my selfe ryght vnreasonable, yf I shold vpō his reason & myn, aduise & counsayle this realme in a mater concernynge the conseruacyō of the fayth, to alter and chaunge that law that was made by so great aduyse, by an whole generall counsayle of all chrystendome / wherin there were (I dowte it not) men that had as good zele to kepe innocētes out of trouble, as any of vs twayne / and mych more reason also than we both haue to. But that point that I shewed hym in my apologye, that the same prouisyon that is made in ye saw ad abolendā, was also made in a generall counsayle: ye tale he letteth go by, as though he herde it not.

But than he cometh forth wyth a worde or two of a ferther fawte in the law, which eyther the man vnderstandeth not what in meneth, or ellys is it herd for any man to thynke yt he meneth wel. These are his wordꝭ so And veryly the law is that theyr othe in that case shulde not be accepted: for the sayde chapyter Ad abolendam, is that yf a man be notably suspected of heresye, that he shall purge hym selfe after the wyl of thordynarye or be accursed: and so the purgacyon of hy[…] neyghbour wyll not serue: Lette euery man therfore consyder, whether the sayd law be indysferent or not. And yf it be not, lette them put to theyr hande to haue it broken. And & thynke veryly, they shall deserue great thanke of god, yf they tourne it to a more indyfferent waye, then it is at nowe. For vnder thys maner the moost innocent man that is, may of malyce be reported to be suspected of heresye and be not so in dede, and so be dreuen to hys purgacyon or be accursed: and then there is another law, that yf he in that case of an indurate mynde stande so accursed a yere, he shalbe punished as an heretike and that is by the law, Extra de hereticis, ca. Exc[…] municamu[…].

This prouysyon good readers yt he speketh, whyche is in the lawe ad abolendam, recited in the.v. boke of the decretalis in the tytle de hereticis yt such as were suspecte shold purge them selfe at the arbitrement & discrecion of thordynary, was as I before haue sayed afterward, loked vppon & alowed in the generall counsayle called consiliū latranense, as euery man may soone perceyue that wyll well consyder the paragraffe excō municamꝰ afterward in the same tytle. For where as ye law there saith, Qui inuēti fuerit sola suspitione notabiles, nisi statim innocētiā suā congrua purgatione mōstrauerint: these wordꝭ congrua purgatione be referred vnto the tother law ad abolendā therof made byfore, as bothe appereth by such doctours as wryte vpō ye lawes / & also to hym yt wyl cōsider it wel it wel appereth by y• self text. For in ye paragraf Excō. be rehersed part of the very wordes of the law[…] ad abolendam, wherby we may se yt the counsayle there loked vpon that lawe. And so was I saye that prouisyon which this man calleth so vnreasonable, not onely made by pope Lucius the.iii. but after also made agayne by ratificacyō by pope Innocent ye.iii. in an hose generall coūsaile. And rede the stories who so wyll, and he shall fynde bothe by Platiua and Cronica cronicarū to, that both this pope Lucius and thys pope Innocēt were very vertuouse men.

And here had it ben reasō now therfore, yt this good man sith he fyndeth in this point so gret a fawt in ye wittꝭ of both these good popes, & in al thē y• were membres of that generall counsayle, and in all the wyttꝭ of al chrysten regyons that haue vsed and allowed yt lawe for good euer synnys: reason wolde I say / that he sholde at the leste haue layed some reason here, wherfore ye lawe can not please hym, that he whiche though he be not proued gysty of the dede, is yet proued suspecte, shold purge hym selfe after tharbitrement of thordynarye, that is to wytte in suche maner wyse as thordynary sholde thynke conuenyent, vpō the qualytees of yt person & cyrcūstaūces of ye cause cōsydered.

Suppose now yt there were none other maner of purgacion, but by his neyghbours swerynge wyth hym, & that those wordꝭ ad arbitriū epi were not writen in the law: were it yet reason to accepte his oth in what so euer maner the man wolde hym selfe deuyse it? and with as few handes as hym selfe lyste appoynt? and with what maner folke so euer hym selfe wolde brynge?

Nay syr. For it may so be, yt there shalbe good cause why somtyme and in some place, that thordynary sholde not putte some man to that kynde of purgacion which yf he dyd, were he neuer so noughty, he shold be sure of compurgatours, peraduenture mo than inough. For it hath ben sene in many cūtreys ere this & somtyme in england to, that some euyll precher prechyng playne opē heresyes, shold yet (if he myght haue ben put to such purgacyō) haue lacked none handes to lay on the boke with hym, that he neuer spake suche wordes.

How be it where ye wordꝭ are opē & playn heresye, ye law hath ꝓuided an other way for ye remedy good inough

But thā haue there ben some prechers such ere this, ye techyng playne heresies to theyr familiars secretely, wold prech in such wyse abrode, that theyr wordꝭ shold haue two senses, & one bote serue for eyther legge like a shypmans hose / & so shold be tempered as the peple shold haue occasyon alway to take them to the wurst / and hym selfe yf he were examined wold say before thordinary & swere to, that he neuer ment but the beste.

Now whan it shold by good wytnesses appere, yt his maner was such the peple toke mych harme therby, & alwaye toke his wordꝭ so that they thought he so mēt thē, y• he purposed by them to set forth & aduaūce those thyngꝭ yt were stark heresies in dede: yf thordinary shold thā appoint him with other cōpurgatours to purge this suspiciō, were these suspiciōs neuer so vehemēt, he shold lacke no cō purgatours to purge hym self euery weke, & thā do as he dyd before. And many good symple folke takyng him euē as he ment, shold fall into his heresyes y• whyle / & wene while he preched so styll, yt to byleue ye way were no perell. And therfore those wise men that made ye law, left ye thyng in thordinarys discreciō to assigne hym that is proued suspect of heresy, such kynde of purgacyon as the cyrcumstaunces of the person, and the peple and the tyme shall most requyre.

And therfore wyll thordynary to some man so suspecte, somtyme assygne hym (to purge his suspycyon yt with his lewd maner of prechynge he is fallen in, to the greate hurte of his herers) that he shall openly confesse yt those heresyes that the people toke hym to mene, be very salse here syes in dede / and openly shall deteste them and swere that he so byleueth them to be / and swere that he neither ment to teche theym, nor neuer was mynded yt any mā shold take hym so, nor neuer wold afterward teche nor hold heresies, but abiure thē for euer.

And yet for the ferther purgacyō of such suspiciō, the ordynary myght also enioyne hym some certayn thynges to do, suche as maye declare the more clereli, yt he is not of such mind / as open prechyng agaynste the selfe same heresyes, & the doynge of some suche thynges as those heresyes dyd stande agaynste.

And now by this purgacyon thys good shall he do, that yf he wolde after preache the same thynges agayne though he vsed agayne such a nother wyly fashyon: yet wolde his audyence then thynke thus (as many as hadde any mynde to be good) eyther this man meaneth nowe by his wordes to teache vs that poynt that hym selfe hath abiured, and then lette vs not lerne the thynge of hym that he wolde in no wyse we shold / or elles he meaneth to t[…]ache yt vs styll for al his abiuracion. And then wherfore sholde we be so madde to byleue a false wreche, yt wold make vs byleue now, that that thynge were trewe / whyche hym selfe hath openly cōfessed and sworen to be false.

But then wyll happely this good man say, that this abiuracyon is perylouse for iubardye of the relapse. The parell of deth by relapse is not vppon euery abiuracyon. But of trouth he that is abiured vppon such thynges proued, as maketh hym not sleyghtly but very vehemently suspected, yf he fall after into heresye, putteth hym selfe in parell to fall into the fyre. And very good reason yt is that yt be so. And a man may some tyme be so suspecte of felony by reason of sore presumpcyons, yt though no man saw hym do yt, nor hym selfe neuer confesse yt, but saye and swere to that he neuer hadde yt: yet may he be founden gyltye of yt, and theruppon hāged for yt, and haue no wrōge at all.

And thus this prouysyon for purgacyon at the dyscrecyon of the ordynarye, is not I truste so vnreasonable, nor they so vnreasonable that made yt, nor they so vnreasonable yt ratified it, nor al they so vnresonable yt thys two or thre hūdred yere haue accepted and allowed yt, but that yt maye nowe stande by thys good mā nys leue at this daye as well as yt hath standen all this whyle before. But yet is there one thīg yt he taketh for a thing very sore. For thā is there (sayth he) a nother law that if he that is so proued suspect, refuse to pourge hym self at the discrecyon of thordynary, and be for hys con[…]umacy excommunycate: that in that case yf he of an obdurate harte stande so accursed an whole yere, he shalbe punyshed as an heretyke. And that ys (as he sayth) by the law Extra de hereticis, capitulo Excommunicamus.

This prouisyon was made as I tolde you in the sayde generall counsayle. And where he bringeth it forth as though yt were a very sore thyng and a cruell: yt is in dede very fauorable. For sauynge that I wyll not do as he doth, go fynd fautes in their doynges, that were so many so mych better, and had so myche more wytte then I: elles could I lay a lytle better cause to proue that prouysyon ouer fauorable, then euer this good man shall fynde whyle he lyueth, to proue that prouysyon to sore.

And surely he that beynge proued suspect, and refuseth in such reasonable maner to purge hym self therof, as his ordynarye shall by his dyscrecyon assygne hym, whych must both by lawe & all reason be his iudge and not hym self, sheweth hym self lytle to force or care, though folke wene he were an heretyque: whych thyng sore aggreueth the suspycyon that he veryly is one in dede. And then whē he wyll rather be ones accursed, then of suche suspycyon yet to purge and clere hym selfe: he yet encreaseth ye suspycyon twyse so sore. But fynally when rather then to purge that suspycyon, he contynueth excommunycated all the whole yere, and neuer wyll be purged in the whyle, but yf he maye haue yt accepted in suche a faynte fashyon as hym selfe lyste to offre: the suspycyon of his heresyes from sore and vehement, tourne by suche dealynge into pleyne open and vyolent, so that he can in reason be none other rekened but a playne heretyque in dede, whome to tolerate so longe doth somtyme lytle good. And then syth the law is, that such as the fauour of the chyrche shall preserue from the temporall handes, shold by the lawe be onely those, which vpon theyr deteccyon, tourne of theyr own offre mekely by and by, and shewe good tokens of ryghte harty repentaunce: I wyll let no man from thinclinacyon towarde pytye, in preseruynge the lyfe of any man / when so euer he seme penytent. But yet surely when the chyrch receyueth agayne that man, that by his obstynate dealynge, wyth abydynge excomunicate and contempnyng the great curse all the whole yere, rather then he wolde purge the suspycyon of his heresye, but yf he may purge it after his own swete wyll, proueth hym self at last, to haue ben an heretyque so longe, & all that whyle wold not retourne but euer more drawe bakke: yf thordynary for all that receyue hym to grace agayne, and kepe hym styll and preserue him from the seculare handes: I wyll not saye that he doth wrong / but fyndynge hym yet repentaunte, fayne wolde I se hym saued.

But yet wythout doute as farre as I can se, thordynarye to saue the mannys lyfe of pytye, strecheth out wyth his teth the lawe and reason both, so farre that euyn scantely can any of the both holde.

And therfore these lawes beynge suche as they be, made and ratyfyed by whole generall counsayle, accepted and vsed so longe thorow al chrystendome: when thys good man cometh now forth, and vppon his own bare reason as bare as euer I herd yet in all my lyfe, bycause onely that an innocente may somtyme take harme, whyche may happen vppon any lawe that euer all the world can make, wherby there shalbe deuysed any punyshment for the euyl folke, he byddeth euery man cōsyder nowe whyther the law be iuste or not, & if it be not, byddeth euery mā put to theyr handes to haue yt broken and make a better, and sayeth that he thynketh they shall haue great thanke of god therfore: his request is now no better, but in effecte euyn this, that agaynste euery wyse mannes reason well approued hytherto, euery man shold in this mater now, eyther trust vnto his, or els at the lest wise euery man to his owne / and in stede of a better old law, make a new mych worse. For if his deuise were folowed: it appereth playnely so there sholde / and heresyes sholde grow vp on heyght, and the catholyque fayth decaye. And then god saue vs frome that thanke of god that shortely we shold wyth such dealynge deserue.

Thus haue I good readers as you se clerely confuted this good mā nys answere in bothe the pryncypa[…] poyntes, of whyche the tone was wherin he mynded to shewe that in heresye the suyte of offyce myghte be lefte, and that by the leuyng there shold none harme folow to the catholyque faythe / bycause heretyques myght as well come to correccyon by the waye of open accusers as by that maner suyte.

But in this poynte you haue sene clerely, that his deuyse wolde neuer so serue the mater / but that yt were very lykely so to mynyshe in thys realme the catholyque fayth with encrease of heresyes, that thindygnacyon of god were sore to be fered therby to folowe theron: and the realme to fall in trouble and besynesse, with insurreccion of the same rebellyous[…] heretyques, that by the chaunge of that law had so bene suffred to grow as other countreys haue ben of late, and this realme was ere this so nere lyke to haue ben / that for thauoyding of the lyke parell to fall afterwarde, yt prouyded by parlyament of great polycye / for the better repressyng of heresyes, to fortyfye that lawe and gyue thordynaryes yet greater power to maynteyne yt / and wyth temporall assystēce to make yt more strong.

His secunde poynte was to shew that of the kepynge of that law, there sholde growe great harme / bycause the law is so vnreasonable he sayth, that innocentes may come to trouble therby wythout offence.

This parte howe properly thys good man hath proued, that haue you sene also / and that he therin is so full and whole confuted, that when he readeth yt agayne, I suppose he will not now greatly lyke it.

Now these two thus handeled he cometh to the thyrde poynte, whyche though I graunted hym all to gether, yet were he neuer the nere. For yt poynt is suche as yf I wynne it, thanne it maketh my parte more playne: but on the tother syde yf I loste it & he wanne it, yet were myne playne inough. And stronge inough were my part wyth the fyrste poynt alone. For yf by the leuynge of the suit of office shold folow thencreace of heretikes, as euery man I thynke that wyt hath, may well se that there wolde / than though there wold some other harme happē somtyme therof, yet must that other harme in reason, rather be borne than that.

But now to come good readers vnto the thyrde poynt, whyche yf he wan all together coulde very lytell serue hym / ye shall se hym yet by goddes grace, wynne hym neuer a pyece.

The thyrde poynt good readers in myn apology you se well your self entendeth nothynge ellys, but by en […]emple of the comen lawes of thys realme, to shew that the same spyrytuall law, whyche this man wolde proue vnreasonable, is not in d[…]de proued vnreasonable by thys thyng that he here putteth for the ꝓfe / that is to saye, bycause that by that lawe sometyme yt myght happe that a mā myght fall in parell of a cryme whyche he commytted not. For yf yt so were nowe, that in all the cases that I rehersed of the commen lawe, there coulde neuer no man that hadde not done the dede, take any harme so myche as a phylyppe / yet though I hadde myssed in those ensāples, the th[…]nge myghte yet be trewe. For there m[…]ghte be for all that, other ensa[…]ples ynough, bothe in other good la[…]es and in the same to, th[…] a lawe w[…]re not vnreasonab[…], nor to be put a […] myght hap[…]e somtime some m[…]n take some harme that neuer dyd the dede that were layde to his charge. And of trouth this conclusyon is so clere that yt nedeth no profe at all. And therfore though he wanne al that poynt / yet hadde he loste the mater. But let vs now a lytle se whether he wynne thys poynte or no.

And bycause the effecte of all hys answere lyeth all waye in this, that he sayeth all waye that the sample of the comen lawe that I laye, is not lyke the thynge that I resemble yt vnto in the spyrytuall lawe: I shall fyrste reherse you myn owne wordes in myne apologye / and then shall I reherse you hys wordes here, […]at when you haue herd bothe tw[…]yne, whether they be lyke or vnlyke ye […]aye the m[…]re surely iuge. These were […]aders m[…] w[…]rdes.

And […] thynketh t[…]at he whych can not be proued gylty[…] […]n heresye, and yet v[…]eth suche man[…]r o[…] wayes that all hys honeste neyghbours wene he were one, and therfore dare not swere that in theyr cōscience they thynke hym any other / is well worthye me thynketh to do some penaunce for that maner of byhauour, wherby he geueth all other folke occasyon to take hym for so noughtye.

And by the comē law of this realme, many tymes vppon suspycyon the iuges a warde write to enquyre of what fame and behauour the man ys in his countrey / and hym self lyeth somtyme styll in pryson tyll the retourne / and yf he be returned good, that is to wyt yf he be in a maner purged, then is he delyuered / & yet he payeth his fees ere he go. And yf he be retourned noughte / then vse the iuges to bynde hym for hys good aberynge, and som tyme suertyes wyth hym to, suche as theyr dyscrecyon will allowe. And then to lye styll tyll he fynde theym, is somtyme as myche penaunce to the tone, as the spyrytuall iudge in […]oyneth to the tother. For the tone cometh to the barre as openly as the tother to the consystorye / and somtyme hys feters waye a good pyece of a fagotte, bysydes that they lye lenger on the tone mannys legges, then the fagotte on the tothers sholdre. And yet ys there no remedye but bothe these must be done, both in the tone court and in the tother / or ellys in stede of one harme (whych to hym that deserueth yt not happeth seldome, and as seldome I am sure in heresye as in thefte, and myche more seldome to) ye shall haue tenne tymes more harme happen dayly to folke as innocēt as they / and of innocentes many made nocentes, to the destruccyon of theym selfe and other to, bothe in goodes bodye and soule.

To thys pyece lo good reader thys is this good mannys answere.

Then he goeth further for mayntenaunce of the sayde suyte Ex officio, and resembleth it to arestyng for suspecyon of felonye, and to the suertye of good aberynge, and to indytementes: wheruppon men be put to answere at the commen lawe. And how farre these resemblances varye from the suyte Ex officio, he in some place openeth yt hym selfe. But yet for a more playne declaracyon therin, I shall saye a lytle farther in that mater. Fyrst as to the arres[…]ynge for suspycyon of felonye, yt is in dede an olde lawe of thys realme, that for suspycyon of felonye, a man may be arrested, so that he that doth arres[…]e hym vppon a reasonable cause, doth suspecte hym: but yt is a generall rule, that he shall neuer be put to answere vpon that arreste, but proclamacyon shalbe made that yf any man wyll lay any thynge agaynst hym, that is so suspected, that it shal be herde: & yf none such cōe he shalbe delyuered without fine or a[…]y other punyshmēt, with a good exhortaciō of the iudges, that he shall take good hede howe he ordereth hym selfe in tyme to come. And then mayster More lykeneth the penaunce of suche a man that hath ben in pryson vppon suspycyon of felonye, and so delyuered by proclamacyon, to the bearynge of a fagotte for heresye. For he sayth, that the one of them shal come as openly to the barre as the other to the consystory: And that sometyme his fetters shall […]ey a good pece of the fagot, besydes that they lye lenger on the one mannys legges, then the fagotte on the other mannys shulder: but he reherseth not howe they lye many tymes lenger in pryson for heresye, then they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge. And ouer that I dare say, that there are but few, but that they hadde wel leuer abyde the payne to be thryse acquyted by proclamacyon, and peraduēture ofter, thē ones beare a fagot for heresy.

Howe goeth nowe good readers thys answere of thys good man vnto the purpose, to proue the trouble of hym that ys arrested vppon suspycyon of felonye, to be vnlyke to the trouble of hym that ys sued ex officio for heresye, touchynge the poynte that I resemble theym for?

The point ye wote wel sor whyche I speke of tharrestyng for suspycyon of felonye, is to shew, that lyke wyse as yt may happen a man for heresye to fall in trouble sometyme though he were none heretike ī dede[…]: so may yt happen a man somtyme to be troubled vppon suspycyon of fel[…]nye, though he be no felon in dede: and yet bothe the tone lawe necessarye and the tother to / and neyther of bothe maye be forborne. Hathe this good man proued vs the contrarye of this? that you se well he hath not. And then hathe he not perdye proued them vnlyke.

He weneth he sayth somewhat, whan he telleth vs that vpon tharrestynge vppon suspycyon of felonye he shall not be put to answere tyll he be indighted. What is hys trouble the lesse for that? If he lye in pryson tyll the sessyon as he maye happe to do were it not more his ease to be putte to answere before and acquytte, yf he be not fawty (for of suche folke we speke) than for lacke of puttynge to answere lye styll in pryson y• lenger?

As for that, that in conclusyon yf no man laye nought to his charge at the sessyons, he shall be delyuered by proclamacions / so shall he that is suspected of heresye to: For yf there be nothynge founden agaynste hym, he shall neyther be dreuen to abiuracyō nor purga[…]iō, but be deliuered quyte, how so euer that eyther thy[…] man myssetake or wolde make other men myssetake the mater to the contrary.

And as to that, that the tone shall pay no fyne / no more shall the tother neyther.

Yf this man wyll peraduenture say, syth that thordinary fyndeth the man not suspect in the ende, why dyd he take and arreste hym for suspecte in the begynnynge. Bycause that in the begynnyng the man semed vpon good consyderacyons suspecte, and semed lykely to fle, and vppon his examynacyon the mater full serched out, the causes of suspycyon so well auoyded, that thordynary declareth hym for dyscharged wythout any other purgacyon. But yet hath it myshapped hym to haue some harme the meane whyle / and so hath it hym also that was arrested vppon suspycyon of felony that neuer was after indyghted, but delyuered forth fre vpō the proclamacyon.

I se no great dyfference bytwene these two men in all this mater yet, saue that the tone lyeth at his owne fyndynge, the tother at the bysshoppes coste.

For where as this man sayth, that he whyche is delyuered by proclamacyon, hath, alwaye geuen hym by the iustycꝭ a good lessō at his departing: yf the bysshoppe geue not the tother a good lesson at hys departynge to, thā is he somwhat to blame in dede / but in […]ood fayth I here saye that he doth so to. And therfore where is this dyfference yet? I loke alwaye for that. For as for the shame of open brynging forth, is both one as I said / sauynge that the sessyon hath comēly mych more people present to gase vppon the tone, than in the consystory loketh vppon the tother.

And where thys man sayth, that they lye lenger in pryson for heresye, than they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge / yf he speke of those whyche are in conclusyon founden in no more fawte concernynge heresye, than those are that are deliuered by ꝓclamaciō be foūdē at the sessyon concernynge felony / I dare be bolde to tell hym nay. And I am very sure the trouth wyll proue so to. But now yf he speke of those that appere vppon thende in suche fawte that by the law they be boundē to abiure / than is it good reason that they lye lenger in dede. And so lye there as reasō is sometyme some for felonye to, repryed vpon causys frō one sessyon to another, and somtyme kepte you se well all the whole yere and more. And that somtyme such as are in conclusyon neuer indyghted neyther, but after all that delyuered by proclamacyon, and yet good causes in ye meane whyle why they were kepte so. And therfore where as this man sayth, that they be in worse case that bere a fagotte, very trouth it ys somewhat and so is it reason they be. For they be not fawtelesse but conuicted of the fawte. And our dyspycyōs is of innocentes that happen by the lawe, the tone lawe or the tother, to take harme without theyr fawte. For yf he wolde compare the fawty with the fawtye, than must he cōpare the tone berynge the faggotte, with the tother at the very fyrste tyme borne vppe wyth the rope.

And therfore I dyd in that place, not onely shew[…] that he that is innocent, maye by arrestynge for felonye happe to haue as myche harme, as he yt is innocent and arrested for heresye: but that he maye happen to haue sometyme also as mych harme, as he that for the fyrst tyme is founden fawty in heresye and playnely conuycted therof. And surely saue for the ferther perell vppon hys ferther fawte, so maye it happe in dede and yet as I sayed in my dyaloge the lawe muste nedes be kepte, but yf you wyll by the chaūge haue fyue theuys for one. And thus as for this pyece of arrestynge for suspyciō of felony, the case hath he not proued vnlyke, towchynge the purpose that I putte it for, but for my parte very stronge. And so hath thys good man in thys fyrst pyece of the thyrde point a very great fall.

Than cometh he nexte vnto another case that I spake of also, that is to wyt arrestynge vppon good aberynge. And where as in myne apologye that pyece is the thyrde, ye pyece in hys answere he maketh the secōd / and I se why well inough. For syth hym selfe seeth that he answereth it so slenderly, he wrappeth it vp in the myddes, bycause it sholde be the lesse marked, and wold ende with another pyece wherin hym selfe weneth tha[…] he sayth somwhat better.

Now as for this good aberynge, to thende yt ye may se the better how gayly this good man answereth it, I shall fyrste reherse you the wordes of myne apology that he maketh this answere to.

After that I haue she weth there, that ye iudges of the spyrytuall court be not so folysshe, but that they had leuer not medle with any man, saue onely vppon some suche open inquisycyon as are indyghtementes of felonye for auoydynge of obloquy, sauyng that necessyte compelleth them to take thys way, for feare that with sufferaunce of heresyes to go forth & grow, all myghte at length thorow goddes displeasure very farre grow to nought / I say there farther thus folio.225.

Necessyte somtyme causeth also both the temporall iuges and the kynges counsayle, to put some folke to busynesse or dyshonestye somtyme, wythout eyther iury or bryngynge of the accuser to the profe of the mater in the partyes presence.

For yf the iudge knowe by sure enformacyon, that some one man is of such euyll demeanure amonge his neyghbours, that they may not […]ere it / and yet that the man is bysyde so vyolent and so iuberdouse, that none of them dare be aknowen to speke of it: wyll there no iudges vpon many secrete cōplayntes made vnto them, without makynge the party preuye who tolde hym that tale, bynde that busy troubelouse man to good aberynge? I suppose yes, and haue sene it so to / and wronge wolde it be some tyme wyth good pore peasyble folke in the countrey, but yf it were so done amonge. And my selfe whan I was chauncellour, vpon suche secrete enformacyon haue put some out of cō myssyon and offyce of iustyce of the peace, whyche els for mych money I wold not haue done, & yet yf I were in the tone rome styll and they in the tother agayne, but yf they be mended (wherof I neyther than sawe nor ye[…] here any lykelyhed) I wold put them out agayne, and neuer tell them who told me the tales yt made me so to do[…]

Lo good readers here you se, that in thys pyece I mene nothynge els, but that where as this good man fyndeth a fawte that the spyrytual iudge sholde medle wyth any man for heresye without an open accusour complaynyng to hym, or an open presentemēt in ye begynnyng / I shew there that necessyte is the cause, and forth wyth afterwarde I proue it, whiche thys good man dyssembleth here and inuerteth here thordre for the nonys. And I shew that necessite (lest mych more harme sholde grow theron) causeth the temporall iudges & the kynges honorable counsayle to, to putte some man to busynesse somtyme and so to dishonesty both, without eyther indyghtemēt, or open accusour, or suffryng hym to make answere eyther / and thus be they fayne to do, but yf they shold suffre many great harmes to growe. Now marke well I requyre you how substancyally thys good man answereth thys. These are hys wyse wordes so.

And then as to the arrestynge for good abearynge, trouth it is, that a man by commaundement of the iustyces may so be arrestyd, but he shall neuer be put to answere vppon that arrest, but onely bounde, and suretyes with hym of his good aberynge. And yf he can no suche surety fynde, and he haue lyen there longe in pryson, then the[…] iuges by theyr […]yscresyon may sende a wrytte to enquere of hys fame, and of hys behauour, whyche is called a wryt de gestu et fama[…] wherof syr Tho. More maketh mencyon in hys apologye: and yf it be founde for hym vppon that wrytte, that he is of good fame and behauour, then he shalbe delyuered. Wherby mayster More sayth, he is in a maner purged, and by that sayenge it semeth that hys meanynge is, that that desyuerye shulde be resembled to hys purgacyon vppon the suspycyon of heresye, as is sayd before. But how ferre they be vnlyke, it appereth thus: when a man is delyuered vppon the sayd wrytte De gestu et fama, he is delynered […] as a man proued to be of good honestye and to be clered by hys neyghbours, of that he was spspected of. And when he is purged vpon the suyte E[…] officio, or for suspicion of heresye, he is put to penaunce by thordynarye, as a man suspected, wherof he is not clered, and so shall he be taken amonge his neyghbours, as a man worthy to do that penaunce for hys offences, wherfore it appereth […]uydentely, that they be nothynge lyke[…]

In this answere good reader one piece he answereth with an vntrouth another piece he leueth halfe vnanswered, and to another pyece he maketh none answere at all.

For where as he saith, that he that is purged of heresye in the suyte ex officio, is put vnto penaunce by the ordynary as a man suspecte, wherof he is not clered: this man sayth vntrewe, and woteth not also what he meneth. For the spyrytuall iudge not onely (as I haue sayde) though he were sore suspected in the beginnyng whan he toke hym, yet yf he fynde in the xamynacyon those suspicyons clered: he putteth hym to no ferther busynesse at all, but also yf it be not so fully clered, but that there remayne some tokens of suspycyon, of whych he thynke it good to pourge hym by ye othe of hym self & some other cōpour gatours with hym, he putteth hym after yt purgacion vnto no penaunce neyther. But now yf it so be, yt there be wel ꝓued such suspiciōs as are so vehement, that though they proue not precysely ye dede, yet make euery man that hereth thē, that he can none other wyse thynke: there wyll the ordynary cause hym to abiure / and yt rather to purge hym of the suspycyō that he were styll nought and afterwarde styll wolde be nought, than yt he was such before. And than for vsyng hym self in such wyse before: though he do penaunce he hath but right. But in all those other cases of suspiciō purged, he saith vntrew / for they do no penaunce at all.

Now concernynge the good aberynge awarded by the iustyces: he answereth yt it is trew / but it is he sayth vnlyke vnto this mater, bycause the iustyces (sayth he) whā he hath long lyen in pryson, maye by theyr dyscrecyon (yf he can fynd no suertyes) a ward a wrytte de gestu et fama.

This is but half an answere, nor scant so mych neyther. For fyrst hym selfe sayth that this wryt they maye sende out after that ye man hath long lyen in pryson / so that than the man yet wythout presentement or open accusour hath had that longe lyenge in pryson in the meane whyle for hys […]uyl demenure at home among hys neyghbours, wherof they durste not openly make complaynt. And thys doth as you se thys good man deny, whych is for my purpose inough.

But than saith he ferther for me, in that he sayth they may award that wrytte yf they wyll. wherin he implyeth that yf they wyl not, they may vpon good dyscrecyon lette hym yet lye styll & let the wrytte alone. And so hath he therfore putte in one poynt ferther for me.

But yet hath this good man one stoppe gappe for me styll, to proue alwaye that my sample is not lyke / and that is that where as in the suyte ex officio, men be put to answere vpō this arreste and imprysoment vppon̄ good aberynge, the man shall neuer be putte to answere.

For answere of this euasyon I wyll aske this good man this, that he which is in pryson vpō good aberyng shall neuer be put to answere, whyther is it his profyte or his losse? If his losse: than his not puttyng to answere, maketh ye mater of my resemblyng, mych the more strong for me. And yf this good man dare answere me yt it is his profite: than wyll I no more but praye hym to put the felow in choyse / & than yf hym selfe chose it for the better, let hym lye styl for me.

This you se good readers that this man sayth not nay, but that vpō good aberynge by dyscressyon of the iustyces, for all the wrytte de gestu & fama, a man maye lye longe in pryson & some peraduēture euer, how be it of trouth I trow it happeth not so.

And yet can neither this good man say, nor I suppose no man ellys, but that it maye somtyme happe by possybylyte, that all that informacyon were wronge. But that is a thynge not lykely to happe so often, but that yf we sholde for suche may happys, put away yt ordre whiche order very necessyte brought vp: there wolde mych myschyefe grow, & many great harmes wold there thā happe ī dede.

Now as towchyng that I sayde, that the kynges counsayle vsed also somtyme vppon great secrete informacion to put some folke to busynes and to some dishonesty to / and I letted not to laye some sample in myne owne dede whyle I was chauncellour my self, by puttyng some out of cōmyssyō in theyr contreys / which dishonesty saue for such secrete informacyon, I wold not for an hūdred poūd haue done thē, & dare yet vpō such se […]ret informaciō very well auow the doyng / & dowt not but yt yf I sholde declare the cause openly, bothe good men & wyse mē wold allow my dede: to all thys poynte lo this good man sayeth nothynge at all, but letteth it go by his eares as though he neuer herde it.

And thus as I tolde you, concernynge thys pyece of good aberynge: thys good answerer hath here borne hym selfe so wel, that some parte he answereth with vntrouth, some part he answereth a greate deale lesse thā halfe, and some parte neuer a deale. If men be content to take this fashyō for answerynge: let any man make than agaynste me as many bokes as he wyll, and putte in what mater he lyst, and I shall neuer nede to study mych for an answere, but may make answerys to theym all shortely and shorte inough, and answere a longe boke in space of one paper […]efe.

But now lette vs se how he handeleth this thyrde piece of endyghtementes at the sessyons. For that pyece he setteth in the rere warde, to staye therwyth all the felde. But nowe that you may se what strength he hath in that warde: I shall fyrste brynge you forth that warde agaynst whyche yt fyghteth. In myne apologye fo.cc.xxii. these are mye wordes lo.

And bycause thys pacyfyer taketh yt for so sore a thynge in the spyrytuall lawe, that a man shall be called ex officio for heresy, where he shal not know his accuser: yf we sholde chaunge the spyrytuall lawe for that cause, thē hadde we nede to chaunge the temporall to, in some suche poyntes as chaunge yt when ye wyll, and ye shal chaunge yt into the worse for aughte that I can se, but yf it be better to haue mo theuys then fewer.

For now yf a man be endyghted at a sessyons, and none euydens geuen openly at the barre (as many be, and many maye well be. For thendytours may haue euydēce gyuen them a ꝑte,[…] or haue herde of the mater ere they came there, and of whome be they not bounden to tell, but be rather boundē to kepe yt close, for they be sworen to kepe the kynges counsayle and theyr owne) shall then the partye that is endyghted be put vnto no besynesse aboute his acquytayle? And who shall tell hym there the names of his accuser, to entytle hym to his wryte of cō spyracye? This pacyfyer wyll peraduenture saye, that the same twelue men / that are hys endyghtours are his accusers, & therfore he may know them. But what helpeth that his vndeserued vexacyon yf he were fauteless? For amēdes the law geueth him none agaynst any of them, nor it were not well done he sholde / but may whē he is after by other.xii. acquyte, go gette hym home and be mery that he hath had so fayre a day / as a man getteth hym to the fyre and shaketh his hatte after a shoure of rayne.

And nowe as yt often happeth, that a man cometh into a shoure by his own ouersyght, though somtyme of chaūs and of aduenture: so surely though somtyme yt happe that a man be accused or endyghted of malyce, or o[…] some lykelyhed whyche happed hym of chaunce and not his faute therin yet happeth yt in comparyson very selde, but that the partye by some demeanure of hym selfe gyueth occasyō that folke haue hym so suspected.

In this pyece my purpose is good reders as you se, to shewe that lyke wise as a man shall in the suyt ex officio for heresye, not knowe his accuser: so may yt also happen many tymes, that no more he shall neyther, when he is at the comen sawe indyghted of felonye. And I shewe also therin as you se, that though yt maye tometyme happe eyther of malyce or chaūce: yet yt seldome happeth for all that, that the partye so falleth in trouble without some defaute of hym selfe, and that the commen generall lawe maye not for such seldome specyall happes be forborne. To this pyece lo this good man answereth me thus.

And then mayster More sayth yet farther, that vppon indytementes at sessyons, the indyters vse not to shewe the names of theym that gaue them informacyon. And he sayeth farther, that they may not shewe theyr names. For they may not dysclose the kynges counsayle nor theyr owne. But as I take yt that prohybycyon of openynge of the counsayle in this case is onely to be vnderstande of theyr own co[…] sayle amonge them selfe, after that they be sworne / but for openynge of the names of theym, that gaue them informacyon before they were sworn, I know no prohibicyon. And yf they wyl not shew theyr names, they be not bounden to do yt / for they be not bounde to helpe the partye to his wryt of cōspyracy, but as they lyste to do in conscyence

Nowe good readers all this pretendyd defence, is nothynge ellys in effecte, but a fayre confessyon, that yt is in dede trew the thyng yt I sayd my selfe, that he whych is endyghted of felony, maye be (as for any adu[…] tage that he can take therby) as ignoraunt somtyme who be his accusers, as he shall in the suyte ex officio. And therby may happen somtyme, that he whyche is fautelesse shall not be all saued harmelesse / and when he hathe hadde his harme, shalbe remedylesse. And yet for all that the lawe not vnreasonable, nor for auoydynge of myche more harme may not be forborne. And therfore as for my purpose euen at that poynte myghte I haue left, and neded to go no farther. And then as you se this good man had ben quyte answerelesse.

But yet went I farther where me neded not, and that this good man sayth that I dyd of necessyte, wherof for this mater I hadde of trouth no nede. And yet wolde I not nowe but I so hadde done in dede. For I haue therby the better broughte to lyghte, what lacke thys good man hath of any suffycyent answere. For these are there lo good readers therin my farther wordes.

Nowe yf thys pacyfyer saye, that yet here ys at the leste wyse in a temporall inge an open cause apperyng, whereuppon men maye se that the iudge calleth hym not, but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym / where as the spyrytuall iudge maye call a man vppon his owne pleasure yf he bere the partye dyspleasure: thys is very well sayde as for the temporall iudge. But what sayth he now for the temporall.xii. men? For ye wote well they maye do the same yf they were so dysposed / and then hadde I as leue the iudge myght do it as they. For in good faith I neuer saw ye day yet, but that I durste as well trust the trouth of one iudge as of two iuryes. But the iudges be so wyse men, that for the auoydynge of obloquye, they wyl not be put in the truste.

And I dare saye the ordynaryes be not so folyshe neyther, but that they wolde as fayne auoyde yt to yf they myghte / sauynge that very necessyte leste all sholde fall to noughte, compelleth theym to take this waye.

Here you se that I meane in this wordes, that though the pacyfyer wolde tell me that the temporall iudge hath by suche endyghtement at the leste wyse, an open cause apperynge wheruppon a man maye se that the iudge calleth hym not of hys owne mynde, but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym: I wolde them graunte hym that thys is in dede a good ease to the temporall iudge, to kepe hym oute of obloquye. And the spyrytuall iuges be not so vnwyse, but that they wold be glad of such a nother pauyce sauynge that they be bounden to take the tother waye, and suffre them self euyl peples obloquye, for auoydyng of the harme yt ellys wold folow, by the decay of Cristes catholyke faith. Whyche thynge I there proue well to, as you shall after se. This as I saye wolde I haue graunted allway thys good man. But then I wold allwaye therwythall haue tolde hym to, that yet all that tale of hys hadde nothyge touched the poynte / but that alwaye for all this tale, the man that was indyghted, yf the mater were in dede vntrew, was neuer the nerer the knowledge who were his accusers, to gete any amendes therby, no more then he that is called of offyce for heresye byfore a spyrytuall iudge. And here nowe what he sayth to this, and whyther we be by his answere for the poynt yt was mēt by me, any one ynch yet the nerer. Lo good readers this is hys proper answere.

And thē bycause he cā none otherwise do, but cōfesse a great dynersyte betwyxte them that be put to answere ex officio, and them that be putte to answere before the kynges iustyces vppon indytementes at the common lawe: for there the iudges haue suffycyent and apparant mater to put theym to answere vppon, and in the other there is none, but that the spyrytuall iudge vppon a dyspleasure may do yt ex officio, yf he wyll. Therfore he goeth yet farther and sayeth, that the.xii. men maye yet do the same, and make a man to be called that is not gyltye, yf they were so dysposed. And trouth yt is, they may indyte a man, that is absent, and that is also not gyltye, and be vntrewe, yf they wyll: but yet in suche case the.xii. men be knowen that do yt, and be also compelled to be vppon the inquyrye: for they maye not be vppon it, but they be therto assygned: and also the partye vppon theyre verdyte shall not be put to answere before theym, as yt is vpon the suyte Ex officio, but before the kynges iudges, before whome the indytemēt is no atteynder to the partie: but that he maye be founde not gyltye, not wythstandynge that indytement. And though mayster More saye, that he neuer saw the daye yet, but that he dursie as well truste the treuth of one iudge as of two iuryes: I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thanke f[…]r that preyse: for surely inryes must nedely be beleued and trusted. And therfore it is not the maner of the iudges to laye vntrouth vppon a iurye, ne yet to commende theym that do yt, but yt be proued afort them o[…] […]ecorde after the order of the lawe.

Here you se good readers yt touchynge the poynte that we spake of, all thys tale helpeth nothynge, but goeth all aboute a nother mater, to proue a nother dyfference betwene ye suyte of offyce and indyghtementes, as though I had sayd there were no difference betwene thē at all. But I was neuer yet so madde to be of that mynde. For thē must I say they were both one. And then were euery endytement a suyte of offyce, & euery suit of offyce an indyghtement, yf there were no dyuersytees betwene them at all.

And therfore yf his dyuersyte shall serue aughte for the purpose: he muste make yt appere that the suyte of offyce bycause of that dyfference, and bycause yt is not lyke indyghtementes in that poynte, is therfore in heresye eyther very clerely nought, or ellys that at the lest wyse yt were somwhat better, that they sholde neuer put any man to answere in heresye, but eyther vppon open accusacyon or psentement had byfore. For els if he wene to wynne this poynt of me with shewynge forth a dyfference: if his differēce proue me no such thyng as I tel you, he may for the mater as wel brynge vs forth any verse dyfference at aduenture, that he lerned at grammer scole.

Now whē he hath layed al his dyuersyties on an hepe, & wold theruppon cōclude, yt bycause of those diue[…] syties, ye suyte of officio were nought and vnresonable: I say yt foloweth nothing: For it proueth yet no farther at the farthest, but yt the order of the comen law were better, & not yt the tother were nought. For it myght well be for al that, yt the cōmen law might be good ynough, though they yt secretly or openly come now & enforme the queste, came either secretly or openly, and lykewise enformed the court.

And now saw I well, that to this poynte was there none answere for this good man agayne / but to tell me yt in such thingꝭ as they now trust the questes, it were parell in stede of […]uryes so myche to truste the courte, by cause the iuges myght then fayn mater agaynste men, and say they were secretely enformed. To this syth I saw what truste the realme must nedes put in ye iudges handes, so farre aboue the wheyghte of the fyrste endyghtement, that serueth for nothynge but for an informacyon and seynge also what maner of men they be that be chosen to be iudges, so that there is nothynge of so great weyght but that yt well may be put in theyre handes: I rekened theym of suche trouth, that saue for euyll folkes obloquye, to them selfe warde / elles to the people there sholde come none harme, though the truste that we put in thēdytours, were in stede of them put in the iudge hym selfe. This I there sayde lo, and this I thynke in dede. For as I sayde there, I neu[…]r saw yet the day, but yt I durst as wel truste the trouthe of one iudge, as I durst truste the trouth of two iuryes. What hath this good man answered me nowe to this? To all this gere here is lo his worsyppefull answere. I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thank[…] for that prayse. For surely iuryes must nedes be beleued and trusted. And therfore yt ys not the maner of the iudges, to lay vntrouth to a iurye / ne yet to commende them that do yt. But yt be proued afore them of recorde after the order of the lawe.

This answere of trouthe is not worthe a straw. For as for yt he sayth the iudges wyll for that prayse can me lytle thanke: that word were somwhat, yf I hadde sayde it for theyr thanke. But I sayd it in good sayth, not for theyr thanke at al, but bycause yt is very trouth, yt I neuer saw the day yet in dede, nor neuer I truste in god I shall, but that I may wel and so wyll I do in dede, […]rust the trouth of one iudge, as well as the trouth of two iuryes. I wolde here wytte of this good man, what disprayse is this to any iury? what vntrewth is there here layed vnto them, or to any one man of them, I wyll vse one worde now this ones, whych this good man vseth often. For now wyll I saye a lytle farther, and that is this (though this man maye happe to thynke the sayenge straunge) I wyll not let to beleue the trouth of some one man, of whose trouth I make my selfe sure & doute nothyng at al, euen as wel as the trouthe of a great many at ones, though they be all suche as I beleue euery one of theym as well as I beleue hym selfe. And I also byleue some one iuge alone, not in connynge but in trouthe, as well as I wyll beleue both hym selfe & all his felowes to. For some one man may be suche, that if he shold tel me a tale as of his own ꝑfyt knowlege: I wold so litle doute yt to be trew, yt I could beleue yt no better, though all the town told yt with hym. Lo what a great vntrouth I lay here to the iuryes.

And this I say for my selfe. And now wyll I with this good mannys leue, saye yet a lytle farther, and I wene I sha[…]l not say so alone. I suppose veryly that there be very few, but so that it myghte make a fynall ende in theyr mater, excepte happely some such as trust more in the fauour of the countrey then in the trouthe of theyr cause: they wold rather be content to put yt whole into the iudges handes, then trouble the countrey wyth callynge vppe of the iuryes, whose trouth yet many tymes deceyueth them, that in an euyl cause haue very great truste vnto theym.

And yet in all this saye not I that the commen order and longe con[…]ytynued law of this realme, to trye the maters by iuryes, & in felony or treason neuer to ꝓcede but vpon endyghtementes, is not good / nor that the cō trarye waye were better. Mary two thynges I saye, that in treason and felonye this ordynarye lawe of endyghtemētes is many tymes fayn to be holpen forth by a nother meane, myche lyke in many thynges to the suyte ex officio / and that ys by dylygent polytyque serche and examynacyons bysyde, both by the kynges honorable coūsayle, & the iuges, & iustyces of peace, euery man for theyr ꝑte in euery ꝑte of the realm / & els wold there many such mischiefꝭ passe by & by indightem[…]t neuer wold be foūdē. And some great and clerely proued felonyes byfore dyuerse and ryghte worshypfull of the kinges counsayl, haue I wyste ere thys, that neuer coulde be goten to be founden by endyghtement in theyre countreys, for all that. How be yt suche examynacyons hathe caused yet many myscheuouse people to be brought to theyre punyshement / and haue put also many suche other vnthryftes in fere, & made them refrayn fro theuyng and drawe them selfe to thryfte / or elies not wytstandynge that there are yet theuys ynough, there wold be wythout doute many mo.

The tother thynge that I wyll say is this, that all these dyfferences & dyuersyties that this good man putteth here, betwene indyghtementes & the suyte ex officio, proueth nothing that the suyte ex officio is not good / but onely at the very vttermost, that the ordre not to procede wythoute an open presentement were better. For […] sayd before, though this lawe by endyghtemētꝭ be better in felony now: yet were not the tother waye nought, yf the lawe were so that the iudges myght procede and put felōs to answere without endyghtementꝭ / as in treason is vsed in thys realme by the lawe marshall vppon warre rered, as we sawe by experyence in captayne Quintyn captayn Genyn Corbet and […]elke. And yet is that lawe not euyll, thoughe that oure owne comen law be better, and that though we truste the iuryes neuer so well, yet myght we truste the iudges as well. And this maye I saye me thynketh without any dysprayse or fawte fyndynge in the iuryes at all. For let him assygne me two iuryes of very well knowen good men / & than yf he wyll aske me what fawte fynd you syr in these men: I wyll answer hym, Mary syr no fawte at all I. I take them all for good men & trewe, and thynke they wyll not saye but treuth / nor I neuer sayd nor thought other wyse. But thā wold I assygne hym by name one of oure iudges agayne / and say now syr that I truste the trouth of your two iuryes well, what fawte is that that you fynde in thys iudges trouth, that maketh you to chekke me so bycause I wyll trust h[…]m no wurse than I wyll truste them. For that is ye wote well al that euer I sayde, that I wolde trust the iudge as well, and not that I wolde truste hym better. And yet yf I had sayd I wolde of the bothe trus[…]e the iudge better: I hadde not by that word neyther, dyspraysed the trouth of iuryes. For he that sayth he wyll better bysene.xxiiii. than.xii, dysprayseth not the trouth of the petit iuries, but byleueth theym well also, saue suche as be founden false. And thus I haue shewed you that I may well say the wordes that I sayd, without any fyndynge of any fawte in any iuryes. And it app[…]reth also metely well, that hym selfe can not well say the contrary without some maner of dystrust in theyr trouth. And yet syth theyr wurshyppys be so well knowe that this good mannys dystruste can not apayre it: they wyll I dare saye forgeue hym. How be it sith the iudges wold (as this man sayth, and as I dare also saye they wolde, be sore dyscontent wyth me, yf I dystrusted the […]routh of the iuryes: the iuryes may now no lesse do agayne of courtesye, than for his wurse opinion of the iudgꝭ trouth somewhat be angry wyt[…] hym.

Nor herin se I none other shyfte for this good man, but for the mayntenaunce of hys mater to saye, that in the comen law, the law wold be good inough in felonye, though the truste were put in the iudges, to putte traytours and felons to answere wythout indyghtement / but in heresye it coulde not be good before an ordynarye / and wolde saye for hys cause a dyuersyte bytwene the tone iudge & the tother, and saye that oure iudges be good men and worshypful, & euer […] ben and euer shall / and that the ordynaryes be, and euer haue bene, & shalbe, very false & nought. Other shyfte hath this man none that I se than euyn to saye thus. And veryly his boke of diuisyon, saue that it saith nothynge to the prayse of temporall iudges that I now remember: yet to the dysprayse of the spyrytuall, for those algates that be now, saith euyn in effecte as mych, ye and rather yet wurse to, saue that ye colour of some say saueth hym from sayenge it hym selfe.

But now yf he defend hym selfe with that fasshyon agayne: what the iuryes wyll say that can I not tell / for the panellys be not yet called. But as for oure iudges, I knowe theyr wysedoms and theyr wurshyppys such, that I am very sure in his so sayenge and his so lyenge vppon the spyrituall iudges, they wolde can hym no thanke at all.

And veryly that the spyrytual ordinaryes be not at these dayes lykely to be such, ye temporall iudges beyng so good as they be: there is amonge many other one lykelyhed this, that he hath chosen the tone that hath chosen the tother, the kynges gracyouse hyghnesse hym selfe / whiche hauyng on both sydes very good to chose of, hath I dare say ben as cyrcumspecte in chosynge of thordynaryes, as of ye iudges. And yet leste in theyr absence the offycers of theyr owne choyse might happe to misseordre ye maters: his grace kepeth not two bysshoppes of all the realm out of theyr diocises, nor to say the trouth not so myche as one. For he whose attendaunce hys grace vseth moste, is far the moste parte of the yere in hys owne dyocise euery daye.

And therfore as I sayd before, all these verse dyfferences, and all these dyuersytees, whiche thys good man sayeth bytwen the suit ex […]fficio in heresye, & the not procedynge with out indyghtem[…]tes vpon treason or felony, proueth at the very fertheste not that the suit ex off[…]cio is noughte, but that not to procede but vpon a presentemēt w[…]re the better away. And than I saye that it is a pore tale and a colde, yf a man wolde come forth & labour vs to breke euery olde lawe longe vsed in this realme, whyche he could not proue but that it were good inough / but yet wolde nedes haue it chaūged, bycause that if it were now to make, hym selfe coulde he sayth make it better.

But now wyll I come a lytell nerer vnto this good man, wyth the […]o[…]he rpoynte yt I towched before / yt is to wytte that it is not in thys mat[…]r inough for this good mā, to proue […] that not to procede wythout open o[…]sacion or presentement is the bet […]er waye, bothe vppon treason and […]onye, but yf he proue vs ferther, i[…] a[…] the same waye were also better in heresye

But thanne haue I shewed byfore in myne apologye, that in heresye that waye wyll not serue. And that haue I there proued by the playneste profe that in suche maner thynges any man can make, that is to wytte by comon open experyence / wherunto thys good man of polycy wolde geue none eare, but in hys answere he hath left it quyte out.

And therein he fareth lo lyke a geste, that maketh hys rekenynge hym self without his hoste / which is therfore after fayne to reken agayn / as I shall nowe brynge in here one peny more into this good mannes rekenynge, whyche I perceyue well hym selfe wold very fayne forgete. Lo thus wrote I ferther good readers to wchynge thys poynte in that selfe same chapiter of myne apology folio. 226.

But yet wyll peraduenture thys pacyfyer saye, that sometyme in some very specyall case, he coulde be contēt that the spyrytuall iudge shold vpon hys[…] dyscrecyon call one for suspycyō of heresye ex officio / but he wolde not haue men comenly called, but eyther by accusacyō or presentemēt in theyr senys or endyghtemētes at the comō lawe. I had as lyefe for any thynge that I se, that thys pacyfyer sholde say thus: By thys way that they be called I wolde not haue them called / but I wolde haue them called after suche an order as they myght be sure that than sholde they neuer be called. For as for accuse folke openly for heresye, euery man hath experyence inough, that ye shall seldome fynde any man that wyll / but yf the iudge shold set an officer of the court therto wythout any perell of expensys / and than were thys way and that way all of one effecte. And as for presentemē tes and endyghtemētes, what effecte wolde come of them concernynge heresye, ye se the profe I trowe metely well all redy.

For thys is a thyng well knowen vnto euery man, that in euery sene, euery sessyon of peace, euery sessyon of gaole delyuery, euery lete thorough the realme, the fyrste thynge that the iury haue gyuen them in charge is heresye. And for all thys, thorow the whole realme how many presentemē tes be there made in the whole yere? I wene in some seuen yere not one. And I suppose no man dowteth, but that in the meane time some there be. I wyll not be curiouse about the serchyng out of ye cause, why it is eyther neuer or so very selde presented, not fyue in fyftene yere. But thys I saye that syth some wyl not, some can not, and none doth / yf he sholde put away the processe ex officio, the thyng shold be lefte vndone / and than shold soone after with heretykes encreaced and multyplied, the fayth be vndone / and after that thorough the stroke of god reuengyng theyr malyce and our neglygence, sholde by sedycyon, & trouble, and derth, & deth, in thys realme many men bothe good and badde be vndone. And therfore for conclusion of this pyece, my pore aduyce & counsayle shalbe, that for heresye, and specyally now thys tyme, men shall suffer the pro[…]esses ex officio stande / and for as many other synnys also as are onely reformable by the spyrytuall law, excepte there be any such synnys of theym as ye thynke were good to growe.

What hath this good man good readers sayd vnto this pyece? what shall we good reders say now to this good man? yt in this goodly answere of his, whiche he wolde were taken for so stronge, vnto this piece vppon whiche gr[…]at part of the mater hangeth, sayth not so mych as mum / but letteth it s[…]ippe euyn by, as though he were one yt had as for this point ben born defe & therby dumme.

And now concernynge this poynt, I wyll yet saye a lytle ferther, that in places mo than one, good euidence haue ben geuen vnto questꝭ of playn & open heresye, whych yet wolde not fynde it / yt wold vpon mych lesse euydēce, haue shortely presented felony.

And one of these maters wyth the prest ye preched it whā I was chauncellour, was brought vnto me by ryghte wurshupfull folke, yt before me aduowed it in his face. And yet coulde not all they cause the quest to present it, but some folke bygā to fal to fauour hym / & had he not ben takē by good wurshypfull tēporall men, many wold haue flocked after hym, & haue folowed hym about for pleasure of hys new fasshyon prechynge. And yet for all that flockyng, though they had made.ii. or.iii. hūdred as they sholde hahpely within a whyle yf a few good men had not letted it: they had ben yet but an handfull to theyr good catholyke neyghbours / and yet by such flockynge togyther, and folowynge on a plumpe, they sholde haue semed in folkes eyen farre the more parte / and at length peraduenture yf they went on & were not letted, they myght grow to it in dede.

That preste I delyuered vnto his ordynary, and that with good and playne profe of his heresye / whyche was in dede soone after that abiured But for this I tell it you, that ye iury wolde not fynde it for all the good folke that gaue them open euydence. And that this is not in one case, nor a thynge that happeth seld, as I sayd in myne apology, playne experyence prou[…]th. wherby you maye se, that in heresy yf the iudge sholde not ex officio procede, tyll the mater were presented by ye iuryes: heretikes myght be bolde to procede on a pace and so they wold I warraunt you, and multyply full faste.

And thus you se good readers, yt cōcernyng this pyece, this good man hath in euery point a gr[…]t ouerthrow.

And therfore now the last clause of this.xv. chapyter of his, is clerely wrested awry. For as though he had all proued, wh[…]re all is dysproued: he fynysheth hys chapyter thus.

And thus it appereth, that mays[…]er More can neyther proue the suyte Ex. officio to be lyke to the arrestyn[…]e of men for suspycyon of felonye, for good aberynge, to puttynge of men to answere vpon indytemētes, ne yet to them that may be accused by.xii. men, and knowe not of it, and tha[…] for the causes before remembred. Wherfore it semeth, that though it were clerely putte awaye, the stretes shulde not swarme full of heretykes neuer a whyt.

This good man sayth here I can not proue any of al these thyngeꝭ like. But euery man may wel se, that lyst to loke backe and rede it, that there is not any one piece of all these that he speketh of, but I haue very playnely proued it very lyke, for ye purpose & entent that I resemble it for. And this shall euery man clerely se, that wyll aduise pyece by pyece.

And therfore whyle vpon dyfferences & dyuersytees that he putteth bytwen them, such as let them not to be lyke in the thyng that I lyken thē for, he bosteth in conclusyon yt I can not proue them lyke: I shall shewe you what thyng now this bost of his is lyke.

If it had come in this good mānes hed, to diuise a law and wryte a boke therfore, to kyll vp all the band dogges thorow out all ye realm[…] (wherin his tyme as vnwysely as it were bestow[…]d, had not yet ben so ill spent as it hath ben in this) and than wold lay for the cause, ye bandogges do spende vitayle, & wyll somtyme byte folke to: yf I wolde than wryte agayns[…]e his wyse boke, and say that he myght by that reason kyll vp hounde[…] and grayhoūdes & all, for they must eate to, and wyll somtyme byte chyldren to / but lykewyse yet as they maye not yet for all that be forborne, bothe for the pleasure that they do, and also for that they helpe to take vs some suche bestes of venory as men eate, and hunte and kyll also suche other bestes and vermyn, as ellys wolde destroye mych vytayle / so the banddogges may not be forborne neither, for they both defende husband mennes howses fro theues, & helpe folke home with theyr bestes to somtyme, such as wold not ellys come home: now myghte this good man by this reason yt he vseth here, write agayne & defend his polytike deuice agaynst bandoggꝭ / & therin answer me thus. Fyrst yt for defence of folkes houses there shal nede no bandogges at all / for men may make theyr seruauntes watche, or make fast all theyr dorys / and whan the[…]es wolde breke in, defende theyr howses them selfe. And as for suche bestes as wold not come home, yf they be not ouer heuy they may bere them home / and those that be to heuy to be borne home, taye ropes to there taylys and drawe theym home. And than myght he saye yet a lytell ferther / and that is this, that he merueiled mych yt I could for shame and fere of myne own conscyence resemble & lyken together, gentle hoū des or goodly greyhoūdes, to such il fauored mast[…]ffes. And thā to proue them very farre vnlyke put his dyfferencꝭ & his dyuersitees, and saye a mastyff[…] hath you wote well a great iolte hed, & a great mosel & a thycke boystuouse body / where as a greyhoūd hath a ꝓperhed, with a goodly smal long snowt, & fayre long slēder sydꝭ / & the hoūdꝭ yet mych lesse lyke

And theruppon myght he there cō clude (as he nowe concludeth here) and saye thus.

And thus it appereth that maister More can neyther proue ye mastyfes to be lyke to ye greyhoūdes, nor to the tother gentle houndes neyther, and that for the causes before remēbred. wherfore yt semeth that though all bandogges and mastiffes were clerely putte awaye: yet mennys houses sholde be defended well inough, and theyre bestes broughte home well ynough to, so they sholde so.

Now yf he ryally tryumphed vppō this, and thought he had auoyded me well: I could no far[…]her go therin in good fayth, but let him take that glorye to hym. And surely wyth any wyse man that readeth ouer here in this chapyter, both hys wordes and myne, and one after a nother consydereth wherfore I resemble theym together: shall fynde I dare boldely warraunt, that wyth his dyfferencꝭ and hys dyuersytees, he wynneth lyke worshyppe in thys.

But now to turne agayn as I ꝓmysed to the fyrste poynte, that ys to wyt his deuise of open accusers: cō syder well this good chrysten reader, that where as this good man in his boke of diuysyon, where he wold haue the suit ex officio left of: he thē reserued vs yet both open accusacyons and presentementes, to put heretyques to answere vpon. But nowe in this.xv. chapiter of his, in his boke of Salem & Bizance, for fauour towarde the catholyque fayth, he dyuyseth no more agaynst heretyques but open accusers alone / and sayeth that open accusers shall suffyciētly serue the mater. And vnto yt here yt I say, and that euery man seeth, that no mā wyll in heresy make hym self a ꝑtye by way of opē accusyng: therto saith thys good man nothynge.

He seeth perdy very well, that in many thynges forboden by sondry statutes for the comen weale, as agaynste the great excesse of apparell and some such other thynges: ye law dothe inuyte and hyre euery man to thaccusynge of the brekers of ye same by geuynge theym the tone halfe of the forfaytoure. And yet for all that as longe & as many lawes, & as sore as haue ben made agaynste suche excesse of apparayle, and as myche as some men myght haue wonne by the suyt: yet howe fewe folke haue ben founden that haue taken those accyōs and therby accused those offenders, the kynges courtes can declare, and the lytle amendement may shew.

Ryottes be open thynges and enquyrable, with paynes also set vpō ye concelours, yet many great ryottes go by vnfounde & ye cōcelours neuer spokē of / & a statut was there fayn to be made, yt it myght be pursued, & punished by the kingꝭ coūsayle without presentement, and that euen by suyte in maner ex officio to. For though the partyes that made the ryot, and the partye vppon whome yt was made, were so well agreed agayne, that neyther nother wolde by theyre wylles haue the mater moued or any more spoken of it: yet may the kyngꝭ counsayle vpon secrete informacion, cause the kynges atturney to make a byll of the ryot, and put the partyes to answere, and sende for what wytnesses they wyll.

Nowe thys man wyll not be so madde I trowe to lay me for a defference, that in the suyte ex officio there is none accuser, and that here the kynges atturney is. For as I haue sayde byfore yf the spyrytuall courte sholde assygne in lyke wyse an offycer of theyre owne wythoute eyther parell or coste; what wolde yt auayle the partye?

If this good man had therfore dyuised rewardes for accusers, & great paynes of forfaytours for them that wolde conceyle and hyde: yet wolde not all that haue holpen well the mater in heresyes. And weneth he thē yt his bare diuise of opē accusers alone, neyther compelled nor hyr[…]d, wyll helpe yt? Nay not and take endytementes and presentementes to them, wyth paynes set vppon the conceylours to.

And this hathe all chrys[…]endome good chrysten reders perceyued / and therfore in euery good chrysten countrey, do they vse the same suyt of offyce (whyche vppon a lyghte reason this man calleth vnreasonable) and haue vsed many longe yeres. Thys lawe also whych this good man thus impugneth vppon his owne vnreasonable reason, was thoughte a lawe ryght reasonable as I tolde you in a generall counsayle at Rome there holden by pope Innocent the thyrde and many great wyse & well lerned vertuous men there at. There were thembassyatours of all the realmes and countreys chrystened / & amonge tother thembassiatours of England. There were thēbassiatours of both the emperours, yt is to wyt Almayn & Grece. There were also ye.iiii. gret pa[…]riarches / yt is to wyt ye patriarche of Antiochia, & the patriarche of Alexandria by theyr deputies / & the patriarche of Cōstantinople, & the patriarche of Hierusalē ī theyr own proꝑ ꝑsons. In this great ful & whole coū sayle of crystendome, was this lawe agreed & approued. And from ye fyrst makyng al cristen coūtreys receiued yt / & haue by the contynuall v[…]e euer syns alowed it. And this realm hath found it so necessary, yt by statutes yt hath strengthed it. And al trew cristē countreis to this day styll obserue it / nor no coūtrey hath there any where left & forsaken it, except such places onely as haue lefte and forsaken the fayth of Chryst / wyth all whose ensamples I truste thys realme is to faythfull to folowe, vpon such good reason as this good man here bryngeth / wherof the very whole summe when it is gathered to gether, a moū teth to no more, but that yt may some tyme happen, that an innocent maye take harme therby / a reason that ones receiued, may suffre no law to stand. For what lawe can he geue so made in al this world, wherby none innocēt can possibly take hurt? But here you se playnely proued agaynst this good man, that by the chaungynge, there wolde surely folowe a nother maner of perell, the decay of the catholyque fayth by thencoragyng of heretikes / whiche wold be well content that we made lawes to burne theym twyse when they be proued heretykes, so yt the good counsayle of this good man be folowed, that the suyte ex officio maye be chaunged into suche open accusers, as in seuen yere shall neuer one come forth, nor one heretyque of lykelyhed ones be put to answere / with a nother good coūsayle of thys good mannys also dyuysed for theyr farther saufegard agaynst arrestyng of them, wherof we be to speke afterwarde in a nother chapyter. Say this good man what he wyll, yf we breke thys lawe so longe approued thorowe crystendome, and take hys deuyse in the stede: his worde wyll neu[…]r so stay the thynge, but that after his wayes ones taken, and by his newe euyll counsayle the good olde lawes broken, men sholde shortely se wythout any doute great encrease of heretykes / whych, where as they were wonte but to crepe to gether in corners, and secretely scoulke to gether in lurkes lauys, shall sone wax bolde and put oute theyr hornes and flocke and swarm to gether so thycke in thopen s[…]retes, yt such myschyefe wolde fynally folowe theron, as wo wyll euery good man be that sholde lyue to se yt. And yet wolde god of his goodnes turne at length the chief harme vppon theyre heddes. But better folke sholde fyrst fele so mych therof, that it were better for bothe, that by these good lawes well kepte whyche thys good man wolde breke, these heretyques be well repressed, and kepte vnder by tymes.

Chapter 18 of 24