The.xxii. chapyter

THe secund sorte that thys pacyfyer speketh of, be they that thynke & saye that it were good to take awaye fro the clergy all that is to myche, and leue that is suffycyent / bycause that greate habundaūce letteth they say, and in maner straungleth y• loue of god. And these that thus saye / thys pacyfyer alloweth for folke wyse & dyscrete. But by what right men maye take awaye from any man spyrytuall or temporall agaynste hys wyll, the lande that is all redy lawfully hys owne / that thynge thys pacyfyer telleth vs not yet. But he wyll peraduēture at an other tyme tell vs of some men that laye this reason and that reason for it. But I haue herde some good and wyse and well lerned men saye, that all the worlde can neuer brynge the reason that euer can preue it ryghte. And as for myne own parte, lyke as I haue somewhat more largely sayed in my boke of the supplycacyon of the soules / yf any mā wold gyue the counsayle to take any mannys lande or good from hym, pretendynge that he hath to myche, or that he vseth it not well, or that it myght be better vsed yf some other had it: he gyueth such a counsayle as he maye when he lyste, and wyll peraduenture after, streche a great dele ferther then the goodys or possessyons of onely spyrytuall men.

And where he sayth that some saye that great habundaunce doth lette, and in maner strangle the loue of god: y• is many tymes very trew, that many men in plenty forg[…]te god, whyche in penury runne vnto hym. But thys reason runneth out agaynste euery kynde of mē spyrytuall and temporall to / and yet are there in bothe twayne some, in whome the loue of god is neyther letted nor strangled therwyth / but it is made by the good vse therof the mater and occasyon of meryte. whyche yf it myghte not be, but must nedes lette and strangle the loue of god / then were y• reason so stronge agaynst all men, that no mā myght with oute dedely synne kepe any habundaunce in hys handes. And than yf to wythdrawe that ineuytable necessyte of dampnable dedely synne, it were lawfull to take as mych awaye from any one man, as the remanaunt that were left hy[…] sholde be but euyn suffycyent: the same reasō wold as I say serue with one lytell wrēche ferther, to take in lyke wyse awaye from euery other man were he spyrytuall or temporall, in whome there myght be layed apparence of so mych habundaunce, that it letted hym to loue god. For that is ye wote well euery mā bounde to do spyrytuall and temporall bothe.

And on the tother syde yf there be taken from no man any thyng, but from him that hath so mych, as no man that hath so mych, may so loue god as he may come to heuē / then shall there be from no man taken any thynge. For I doute not but that there are at thys day holy sayntes in heuyn, of suche as were spyrytuall and of such as were temporall to, that hadde whyle they lyued here, as great possessyons as hath eyther spyrytuall or temporall wythin the realme of Englande now.

Moreouer syth this pacyfyer accompteth them for dyscrete, that leuynge the clergy suffycyent, wolde that all the remanaunt were taken away from them, bycause the great habundaūce letteth them they say to loue god: yt hadde ben well done that he hadde somwhat declared his mind how lytle he calleth sufficyēt / lest y• some of his discret folke wold vndyscretely mysse construe that worde, and for lacke of suche fauour & pytye as hym selfe ye se well […]ereth to y• cle[…] gye, wolde leue theym to lytle and call yt ynough. For yf this pacifyer wolde moder & measure his suffycyencye by the wordes of saynte Poule, where he sayth: Hauyng mete and drynke and where wyth to be couered, lette vs be content: excepte hym selfe that loueth theym go farther therin and appoynte them theyr fare & theyr apparell to, some other happely that loue them not so well, wyll deuyse them a diete as thynne as Galiene deuyseth for hym that hath an obstruccyon in his lyuer / and bycause saynt Poule speketh but of keueryng, wyll dyuyse them clothes that shall onely keuer theym & not kepe them warme.

Bysyde this, yt semeth that yet his dyscrete folke sholde not vnder the name of habundaūce, take all from y• chyrch that they wold take from euery man to whome thay wolde leue bare suffycyent / but that they rather shold such as they wold take from one that hath more then suffycyent▪ dyuyde it amonge suche other of the chyrche that haue lesse then suffycyent. Now yf they shold yet besydes this (whyche I wene they sholde not) fynde yet a great some remaynynge after all the spyrytuall folke sufficyētly prouyded for / then hadde it ben good that he had yet farther dyuysed, howe yt wolde please hym y• his discre […]es sholde order y• remanaūt. For though they be as he taketh them dyscrete persons of them selfe, bycause they wold take away but the great habū daunce, and leue but the bare suffycyent: yet theyr dyscrecy on shall do a great deale the better, yf yt lyke hym to geue them his dyscrete coūsayle to.

when it shold come to this poynt / here myght paduēture hym self & his discretes make vs many deuycys, & euer the more the more vndyscrete.

I haue bene wythin these foure or fyue yeres (For byfore I herde lytell talkynge of suche maner of dyuycys) but within thys foure or.v. yeres, I haue ben at such dyuyces in diuers good mery cōpanyes, neuer ernestely talkyng therof (For as yet I thanke god that of thys mater I neuer herde any suche) but for passe tyme by waye of famylyare talkynge, haue I herde dyuerse, bothe in hande wyth prelates and seculare prestys and relygyouse persons, and talked of theyr lyuynge, and of theyr lernyng, and of theyr lyuelod to / and whither them selfe were such as it were better to haue them or lacke thē / and then touchynge theyr lyuelod whyther it myghte be lawfully taken from them or not / and yf if myght, whyther it were expedyent so to be / & if it so were, then to what vse. And in many suche mery talkynges I haue alway remē bred / & bycause out communicacy on came sometyme to a myche lyke poynte, somtyme haue I told and rehersed the story that Titus Liuius telleth of one Pacuuius Calanius y• Capuaue, in the thyrd boke of his thyrd decade that treateth of y• Romayns warre wyth Hanibal and the city of Carthage. This Capua was of all […]taly the chyefe cytye, and of the gretest power saue onely the cytye of Rome. In which cytye so happed it, that the comynaltye were fallen in grudge and murmur, and at dyuysyon wyth the senate / as thys pacyfyer sayth that the temporaltye is here at these dayes agaynste the clergy.

wherupon this Calanius beynge a senator, and […]atheles lenynge all vnto the people (bycause he saw them by sufferaunce and ouersyghte of the senate, growen into an vnbrydeled lyberty / and as they must be what they conspyre whole togyther, waxen the more myghty parte) studyed & bythought hym selfe what meane he might inuente fyrst to brynge the senate in hys daunger / and than by some benefyte wyn all theyr good wyllys / and yet therwyth all encreace his fauoure with the people bysyde. Uppon thys beyng as it happed the chyef gouernour of the citye for the tyme / he brake vppon a daye sodaynly to the senate, & told them that them selfe wyst wel inough what grudge the people had to them / but the parel and daūgeour that they then presētly stode in, that he sayd wyste they not. But he knew well that the people entended now after y• great ouerthrow whyche the Romayns hadde late hadde at Cannas, to kyll vp all the senatours, & breke theyr lege with the Romayns and fall into the part of Hanniball. How be it quod he yf ye dare putte your selfe in my hande / I haue deuised a way wherby ye shall se me shortly, not onely saue all your lyuys but also preserue your state. And whan the senatours in that sodayne fere agreed to putte hym whole in truste to order all y• mater as he wold: he commaunded them all sodaynly to be locked faste in theyr coūsayle chamber / and settynge armed men at the gate to se that neyther any other man sholde entre in vnto them, nor any of thē come out: he called sodaynly to an assemble the whole people of the cytye / & there sayd in thys wyse vnto them. The thynge that ye haue dere frēdes these many dayes myche desyred, that ye myghte ons be reuenged vppon thys vnhappy senate, and amoue theym from the […]ome that by theyr couetouse and cruell delyng haue well shewed theym selfe full vnmetely to bere the name of fathers vnto the people: this thynge haue I now by polycy for pour sakes peasybly brought vnto your handes / & that in suche wyse as ye shall not nede to fyghte therfore, or assawte pertycularely theyr howses. In expugn[…]cyon wherof, beyng▪ as they wolde be fensed wyth theyr seruauntes and theyr frendes, your selfe myghte stande in parell▪ But I haue shette them vppe yender togyther alone by thē self, clene out of armour without ayd or any maner defēce, where you shall haue them all without any mannys deth or stroke.

At this word gladde was all the people / and geuynge hym hygh thākes, wold forth wyth fayne haue ben vppon them. Syrs there nedeth in this poynt none hast quod he / but one thynge is there tha[…] yf ye thought theron, ye wold I dare say do fyrste. For they be the why[…]e […]aufe ynough, there as they scape not from you. But I haue euer know[…] you so wyse, that ye wyll not I wote well set your short present pleasure byfore your perpetuall welthe, whyche ye s[…] well ye sholde do yf ye sholde lyue lawlesse and wythoute a rule / nor no lawe can s[…]rue excepte there be some gouernours. And therfore two thynges muste ye do at ones / that is to wyt, both remoue these, & also set of your selues some better men in theyr places.

wherfore I haue broughte here theyr names in a pot. Let them be drawen oute / and as they come vnto hande, determyne your pleasure of theyre persons, and substytute therwyth theyr successours. This mociō of Calauius was such, y• eyther of reason they could not myslyke yt, or ellys for shame they wolde not refuse yt. And theruppon oute was there drawen a name, at the herynge wherof the cryed out all the company, & euyll and a noughtye man, and bode a way wyth hym. Uery well ꝙ Calauius / whome wyll you now name to put in his place. At that they pawsed a lytle and began to bythynke them. But shortely some named one and some named a nother.

But with perusyng after this fashyon of a fewe, there was none that one man named & a[…]aunced for good▪ but fyue for that one reiected hym / as eyther very nought▪ or at the leste more vnmete to take in, then he whom they wolde put oute. So that longe ere they hadde perused halfe / as mych as they mysselyked many of they[…] olde, yet founde they yt so […] a thynge to fynd out th[…] better new▪ that they wax[…] […] of the sekynge. So that Calauius ꝑceuyng them […] in the mate[…] somwhat to staker and staye / persuaded them easely to concorde wyth t[…]ose that they hadde byfore / & theruppon they left of theyr e[…]ccyon, and let the new chos[…]n passe, and kepte theyr old senate styll.

And surely somwhat▪ lyke but not all after this fashyon, hath yt fared in such good cō pany as yt hath happed me to be at communycacyon vpon these maters of the clergye.

For in conclusion after many fautes layed agaynst the spyrytualty that is now, and many new dyuyses for theyr landes / when we came at last vnto Calauius pageaunt, and those that founde the fautes in the body at large, in suche a large fashyon layed forthe by them, as though ther were not one good man amonge them: when they had the names of th[…]s prelate and that prelate recy[…]ed and rehersed vnto them by rowe, and were asked what saye you by hym, and what by hym / all be yt y• they dyd by some of them say they were noughte, and that yf lyke as the Capuanys shold haue chaunged a senatour for a comuner, so yf they sholde for euery one of the spyrytualtye take into hys plac[…] by choyce and eleccyon▪ some good temporall man, they myght for this prelate or that concernynge some of theym, shortely make a good chaūge. For some of them thoughte they suche, as for one poynte or other they could not lyghtly find a worse. yet on y• tother syde agayne, at some of them they stayed and stakered, and wyth myche worke broughte forth some at last, with whom they myght as they […]houghte matche them / and yet by theyr owne confession no more then matche theym, & in my mynde not so mych neyther / but lyke as in some they & I somwhat varyd, so in dyuerse other we were agreed both, that for to make the chaunge, neyther coulde they fynde theyr better nor theyr matche neyther.

Nowe where as we went thus no farther they the prelates / yf we sholde haue perused ouer y• whole clergy bothe relygyouse and seculares / though we mought haue foūd out some that bothe moughte and gladly wolde haue ben chaunged for the prelates (for I haue herde many laye men that wold be byshoppes with a good wyll) and though we moughte haue also founden ynough of those that wolde matche theym that are euyll & naughty s[…]culare prestes, and them that are runne out of relygyon to, & that wolde and were able to matche theym in theyr owne wayes were they neuer so bad: yet of those that wolde marche y• good as fewe as some folke wolde haue th[…] seme, yt wolde not I wene as the worlde goth now, be very easy to fynde oute so many.

But as welthy, and as easy, and as gloryouse as some say to this pacyfyer that religyon is / yet yf some other shold say to them, lo syrs these folke t[…]at are in religyon shall out, come you into relygyon in theyr stedes, and lyue there better then they do, and you shall haue heuyn / they wolde answere I fere me, that they be not yet wery of this world.

Then yf they were inuited into relygyon on the tother fashyon, a[…]d were sayde vnto them thus: Syrs we will not byd you lyue so strayte in relygyon as these men shold haue done / come on and enter, and do but euen as they dyd, and they shall you there haue a good easy lyfe and a welthy, and myche worldely prayse therewyth: I wene a man sholde not yet for all that gete theym to go to yt. But as easy as we call it, and as welthy to / and now peraduēture when our wyues are angry, wyshe our selfe therin: yet yf yt were thus offred, we wolde play as Isope telleth a fable of a pore olde man / whych beryng vppe a[…] hyll a bourden of busines in his necke, for helpe of his necessite pa[…]tyng for werynesse, in the mydde way layed downe his burden and satte him down & syghed, and wa[…]ed so wery of his lyfe y• he wyshed & called for deth. wheruppon deth came anone redyly towarde hym, & asked hym, what wylt thou wyth me. But when the pore felow saw hym y• lene horeson there so redy: I called you syr quod he to pray you do so mych for me, as helpe me vppe agayne wy[…]h this bychede burdayne, and laye yt in my necke. So wene I that for all our wordes▪ yf that easy lyfe and welthy that […] in relygyon, were offered vs / as wery as we be of weddynge, we wold rather abyde all oure olde payne abrode, thē in a cloyster take a relygyouse mannys lyfe for ease. So that in conclusyon we sholde be fayne eyther to putte worse in theyre stede, or kepe our old styll, tyll as they lytle and litle dye and depart, god in lyke wyse lytle & lytle as he hath euer hytherto prouyded, shall inspyre his grace into the brestes of other, and make theym fall in deuocyon and enter into relygyon, and so […]uccede in theyr places.

Now as yt fared in our cō munycacyon by the spyritual persons / so fared yt in a maner by the spyrytuall mennys possessyons. Not for that we myght not alway fynde other ynough content to entre into theyr possessions, thought we coulde not alwaye fynd other men ynough content to enter in theyr relygyons, but for y• in […]yuysynge what way they shold be better bestowed, such ways as at the fyrste face semed very good, and for the cō fort and helpe of pore folke very chary[…]able, appered after vppon reasonynge, more likely within a[…]while to make many beggers mo, then to releue them y• are all redy. And some way y• appered at y• fyrst to mow stande the realme in great stede, and be an increase of the kynges honour, wyth a great strength for the lande & a gret suerty for the prynce, and a great sparynge of the peoples charge / well appered after vppon farther reasonynge, to be the clene contrary, and of all other wayes the worste.

And to say the trouth, mych meruayle haue I to se some folke now so myche & so boldely speke of takynge awaye any possessyōs of the clergye. For all be it that onys in the tyme of the famouse prynce kyng Henry y• fourth, aboute the tyme of a greate rumble that the heretykes made, whā they wolde haue destroyed not the clergye onely but the kynge also and hys nobylyte to / there was a folysshe byll & a false put into a parleament or twayn, and spedde as they were wurthy: yet had I neuer founden in all my tyme whyle I was conuersaunt in the courte, of all the nobylyte of thys land aboue the nomber of seuen (of whyche seuyn there are now thre dede) that euer I perceyued to be of the mynde, that it were eyther ryght or reasonable, or could be to the realme profytable without lawful cause, to take any possessyons awaye from the clergy, whyche good and holy prynces & other deuoute vertuouse people, of whome there be now many blessed sayntes in heuen, haue of deuocyon towarde god geuyn to the clergy, to serue god and praye for all chrysten soulys. And therfore as for such folk as thys pacyfyer calleth dyscrete, for theyr dyscrete inuencyon of takyng from the clergye the abundaunce of theyr possessyons / I neuer loke to se them so dyscrete, as were those men bothe dyscrete and deuoute that gaue them.