The.viii. chapyter

[…]or as for the preachers other pieces in y• begynnyng of those wordes, I haue let passe vntouched / where he sayth, he hath begoten vs by the word of hys trouthe, euen as yt pleased hym▪ Marke that saynte Iames sayth euen a[…] yt pleased hym. If we were begoten and made euen as yt pleased hym / then was yt not done as yt pleased vs. And agayne yf we were begoten by hym / then coulde we gyue hym none occasyon to lo[…]e vs. For why we cam of hym & not we of vs. These wordes good readers haue no great harme in them at the fyrst face. But they allude vnto certayne wordes of Tyndale, wyth whych he argueth agaynst me, bycause I saye in my dyaloge that man may with his fre wyl by good endeuoure of hym selfe, be a worker wyth god toward the atteynyng of fayth. Agaynste whych sayeng of myne, Tyndale (as I haue shewed in my seconde parte of Tyndales cō futaciō, in mockage of mānes endeuoure toward the bylief, & in scornyng that man shold captiue his vnderstandyng & su[…]dew his reason into the seruyce of fayth) answereth me wyth an hydyouse exclamacy on / and cryenge out vpon my fleshelynes and foly, fometh out hys hygh spyrytuall sentence after this fashyon.

O how betleblynde i[…]e fleshely reason[…] the wyll hath none […]peracyon at a[…] in the workynge of fayth in my soule, no more then the chy[…]d hath in the begetynge of his owne father. For sayth Poule yt is the gyfte of god and not of vs. My wytte mu[…]te sh[…]we me a trew couse or an apparaunte cause why, […] my wyll haue any workynge at all.

To this pyece of Tyndales tale yt semeth, that this preacher dothe allude. And he couertly layeth as ye se, the reason that Tyndale layeth for it, of the begeter & him that is begotē. But he layeth not the authoryte of saynte Poule as Tindal doth. But he layeth y• wordes of saynt Iames, why […]he he hath here in hande, God hath wyl[…]yngly begotten vs wyth the worde of his trewth / and stycketh for this purpose vppon thys worde, wyllyngly, and argueth thus, god begate vs wyllyngly sayth here sa[…]nte Iames, that is to wyt after hys owne wyll, and as yt pleased hym / ergo he dyd not begete vs after our owne wyll nor as yt pleased vs.

This argument hath this preacher vnderpropped and enforced, wyth interpretynge of the worde wyllyngly / for that is the word of saynte Iamys. whyche worde the preacher s[…]rengtheth here wyth after hys o[…]ne wyll and as yt pleased hym self.

And yet neyther that word[…] wyllyngly of yt selfe, nor strengthed wyth all these other, can make but a bare forme of arguynge yf yt were in another mater. For if I desyred a man to geue me a thyng, and labored myche to hym therfore, & myche endeuered my selfe in many thynges to please hym, to thentēt that he […]holde geue yt me, and that he theruppon so dyd / thys were then but a pore argument to saye thus: this man wyllyngly gaue me this thynge, & after his owne wyll, and as yt pleased hym / ergo he gaue yt me not after myne owne wyll & as yt pleased me. For as ye se, yt bothe pleased hym to geue yt me, & also yt pleased me that he so sholde / or elles I wold neuer haue desyred yt, nor neuer haue labored therfore.

And thus ye se that thys authorite of saynt Iamys no thynge helpeth thys precher in hys purpose agaynst all occasyon and all endeuoure of man towarde the gettynge of fayth, by whyche we be bygoten.

But Tyndale layth that texte of saint Iamys agaynst the sacrament of baptisme, to proue that the worde of the promyse dothe all the wurke in the regēdrynge of the soule by fayth / and that the water toward the infusyō of grace, or wesshynge of the soule, is none instrument of god, nor no thynge ellys but a bar[…] graceles token / bycause saint Iamys sayth that god hath clensed vs by the worde of trouth, whych Tindale there expouneth by the word of his promyse / as though neuer a worde of god were trewe, but onely hys promyse. Now of trouth the worde of god that a precher precheth, by whych the poyntes of the faith be lerned / be sygnes & tokens that sygnyfye the thynges in the mynde, whyche are by those wordes brought vnto the herers […]are, and from the eare to the hart / as the water sygnyfyeth and betokeneth the inward washyng of the soule in that sacramēt. And as god vseth the tone tokē of y• word to the wasshynge & clensynge of the soule thorow y• meane of obedyence of the wyll, in captyuynge of hys reason & vnderstandynge in to the seruyse of fayth, by credence and assent geuyng vnto the word of fayth / in whyche what so euer Tyndale saye and thys prechour to, mā hauynge age and vse of reason, maye be a wyllyng wurker with god / or ellys wherto sholde any man aduise and byd another come vnto the trewe fayth: so may god vse the tother tokē of the water as an instrument also to the same purpose, by the lyke meane of obedyence on the mannys parte, in submyt tynge hym selfe to that ablu […]yon, for the fulfyllynge of goddes commaūdement and ordynaunce.

How be it what I ferther answere Tindal to these wordes of saynt Iamys / who so lyste to se, let hym rede in my fyrst parte of Tyndalys confu[…]acyon in the answere vnto Tindals preface y• nōber.liii. and than set this to it / and he shall se that neyther Tyndale there nor thys precher here, hath by theyr maner of expounynge these wordes of saynte Iamys, wonne thē self mych wurshyp. How be it of trouth the thynge that goth nerer to theyr purpose agaynst all the wurke of fre wyll, and all endeuour of man towarde the attaynyng of fayth, is the authoryte of saynte Poule that Tyndale bryngeth forthe / which yet proueth it not. And the reason that he layeth by sāple of y• father and y• sonne / whyche reason thys precher though somewhat fayntely syth he seeth it wyll not serue, yet somwhat repeteth here by these wordes, where he sayth, And agayne yf we were begoten […]y hym, then coulde not we geue hym none occasyon to loue vs / for why we came of hym and not we of vs ▪ by these wordes he meaneth the thynge that Tyndale alledgeth where he sayth, The wyll hath none operacyon at al in the working of fayth in my soule, no more then the chylde hath in the begetynge of his father.And of trouth Tyndale & hys precher sayde somwhat, yf in the spyrituall generacyon the man that ys regendred, were euer more as farre from all wurke of wyll at suche tyme as god goth about to bygete hym by fayth, as is the chylde at such tyme as hys graundefather goeth about by nature to byget his father.

But now on the tother syde, yf in the generacyō at the bege[…]yng of hys father, y• sonne be not yet so mych as a chyld, nor hath no wyl at all / and at the tyme of the spyrytuall regeneracyon of hym selfe, he that is regendred happe to be more than a chylde, and haue the fredome of his own wyll, and hath the choyce therby put in hys owne hande, whyther he wyll at goddys callyng to fayth by redyng, prechynge, myracle, and suche other occasyons, wyth good inwarde mocyons added also therto, folow the spyryte, and walke and wurke wyth god by captyuynge of hys owne vnderstādyng & subdewynge of hys owne reason, into the assent and bylyef of the thynges that he shall be moued vnto, and by callynge vppon the contynuaunce of goddes gracyouse helpe therunto, & therby come into the seruyce of fayth / or whyther he wyll ellys reiecte goddes good & gracyouse mocyon and resyst it, and so fle from the gettyng of the gyfte of fayth: yf the man I saye be at the tyme of hys spyrytuall bygetynge in thys case, as euery man that hath at the tyme age and vse of reason is / thā is thys sample that Tyndale doth there put, & that this preacher doth here repete, of the chylde at the carnal byrth of his father, mych lesse lyke the man at the spyrytuall byrth of hym selfe, then is an apple lyke vnto an oyster.

Howe be yt good readers, bycause the bretherne blame my bokes for the length / I wyll make no lenger argumēt of this mater here / for in these few wordes yt appereth metely well.

But yf any mā thynke hym selfe with this not yet fully satysfyed, then hath he nede for his contentacyon to se the mater handled somwhat more at length. And who so therfore lysteth so to do, let him rede in my fourth boke of Tyndales cōfutacion, which is in y• fyrst boke of the second part, in the chapiter of y• maner and order of our eleccyon begynnynge. If he lyst in y• lefe that is marked wyth the nomber of.c.xii. and then wyll his owne reason serue hym to se how farre the mather goth: whych yf he rede out, I dare boldely promyse that he shall there fynde suche thynges, as agaynste Tyndale and thys preacher both, shall as for this poynte in all reason be suffycyent to satysfye hym.

But now yf thys preacher wyll peraduenture saye, that of his word[…] in both these maters I haue mysse rehersed hym / I am redy to brynge forth my copye and the man of whome I hadde yt to. Or elles I shal make him a mych fayrer offer / bycause he maye peraduenture say that he neuer wrote that sermon hym selfe, but that some of his audyence whyche of deuocyon wrote as myche as they bare away vppon the heryng, dyd wryte yt dimynute and māgl[…] for lacke of good rememb[…]unce / let hym vppon thys answere of myne sene (yf yt […]ppen to come into his han […]es) wryte his owne wordes hym selfe / not onely as well as he thē sodaynly spake thē, but as well also as he cā with longe laysoure make theym. And when he hath done in thē the beste that euer he can, and take whose helpe he wyll to / if he make it so as he may therwyth auoyde and refell my cōfutyng of Tyndale in those two poyntes that those wordes of his sernon touche, then dare I be boūden to forswere this lande, and lyue in Antwarpe and be Tyndals man.

How be it yf in the mater of mānys endeuoure toward the attaynynge of fayth, by walkynge on wyth god wyllingly after that god hath preuented hym wyth hys grace, by callynge on hym and gyuynge hym occasyon to come forward / yf any brother thinke to scape and auoyde my profe in the place afore remē bred, by the dystynccyon that Tyndale hath lerned of Philyppe Swar[…]the, and bryngeth forth agaynste me of hystorycall fayth and felynge fayth (whyche dystynccyō dyuerse of the bretherne and systerne haue in theyr mouthes now, and therwyth sodaynly caste a myste before vnlerned mēnys eyen, and make them adased for y• tyme that neuer harde of it before) he y• wolde wynde awaye wyth thys dystyncyon, shall nothynge auoyde my confutynge of Tindale in that place. For yf hys dystynccyon be trewe / yet vppon goddes gracyouse preuē cyon and fyrst callyng vpon, I saye and there proue that the wyllynge endeuoure of man in folowynge, helpeth to the attaynynge of euery maner kynde of fayth / and procu […]eth the progresse & encreace of grace to the perfytynge of that vertue in man and wyth man, whyche god fyrst began in man by goddes owne preuencyon without man / but in them that haue age and dyscrecyon, vseth not to fynysshe and fulfyll it wythout man / but whā man refuseth (except he mende and turne) els god leueth fynally hys own good bygone wurke vnfynysshed. And therfore sayth saynt Austayn to euery man that hath vse of reason: He that hath created the wythout the, doth not iustyfye the wythout the.

And yet for […]erther conclusyon, bycause I here say that the same dystinccyon of hystorycall fayth and felyng fayth, glytereth nowe so gayly in the bretherns eyen / lette them rede my confutacyō thorow. Or bycause they call that to longe, lette them rede but the seuenth boke, whyche is entytled the defence of the secūd reason agaynst Tyndale. Or yf they thynke y• boke alone to longe, let them leue a grete parte of the boke, and begyn in that lefe and that syde of the lefe that is marked wyth the nomber of.cccxl. And then yf they can for hart burnyng abyde and endure to rede it vp to the ende / I dare be bold to warraunt, that they shall fynde the same gaye golden dystynccyon of hystorycall fayth & felynge fayth, foūden f[…]st by Phylyp Swarterthe whych lyke as frere Huskyn […]th na[…]en hym selfe […]colampa[…]ius, hath made hys name n[…]w Melācthon) This […] I saye so made by Melancthon, shall they se so brou[…]t in there by Tyndale and so se[…] forth and furn[…]he[…] by the lernynge and labour of them bothe, that it cometh to suche passe in conclusyon, that no parte of all Tynda[…]s tale is brought to more shamefull confusyon.

But nowe the bretherne wyll (when any good catholyque man prouoketh theym to rede the place in my boke) answere as dyue[…]se of theym haue done ere […]is to suche good catholyque folke as prouoked them therto & offered to rede yt with them, and ther uppon to trye betwene theym whyther Tyndale or I hadde better reason on oure parte: the bretherne haue vpon this offer shronken at last therfro, after great crakes made of Tyndales parte, wyth great contempte of myne answere byfore / and haue answered y• they wyll not myssespende theyr tyme in redyng of myne answer, they se Tīdales tale so sure.

Now of trouth this had ben a good answere and a reasonable, yf when they were fast in the trew catholyque fayth, they wolde thus haue answered any such as wold haue aduysed theym to rede in Tyndale, and serche whether the fayth of all the holy sayntes & of all the whole corps of crystendome thys.xv. hundred yere to gether, were trewe or false. For that were a thynge wherof yt were a very fransey to doute.

But now they that are fled from the fayth of all them, of whose fayth there was no cause to doute / and are fallen to the faith of a few faythless[…] folke, false apostatas wylde wedded monkes and freres and theyr fonde dyscyples: if they make theym selfe so sure of theyr deuylyshe doctryne, that they refuse to rede the thynges that are wryten for the confutacyon of theyr errours / euery good catholyke man that so seeth thē do▪ may w[…]th good reason tell theym y• they do not cleue to these folyshe heretykes for any th[…]ng that they thynke them to saye […]outh, but bycause they wold fayne yt were trouth whyther yt be or no / and that they shew they[…] frowar[…]nes therin very playnely, whyle theyr hertes abhorre and can not abyde to rede any boke, by which theyr o[…]n conscy[…]nce geueth them y• they shal fynd theyr opiniōs playnely proued false, & theyr ar[…]h[…]eretykes playnely proued folys. For yf they hoped the contrarye, they wolde (I warra[…]nt you) be them selfe th[…] fyrste that wold call other therto.

And thus myche for thys […]me suffyseth for this poynt.