The fyfth chapytre

IN the fyfth chapiter he toucheth punyshement of heresyes, & dyuydeth ye mater into foure sortes of people / wherī for as mych as he nothynge sayeth that toucheth me, I let them passe all foure.

After those.iiii. sortes perused: he speketh of the fyfth, whyche he very ernestly dysprayseth, that are those whyche take and hold contrary wayes / to the trewe fayth in dede. But then in that part he myche misse lyketh in me, bothe that I call them any euyll name, as the noughty bretherne or heretyque bretherne, and also that I call theym good namys to, as the blessed bretherne and euan gelycall bretherne.

And for the fyrst in callynge them any suche euyll names: he sayth I do not as I wolde be done to / as appereth he sayeth in myne apologye. […] Surely I suppose he maye therin fynde, that I force not what suche as they be call me. And I can wryte no worse worde by theym I wote well, then they wryte many by me.

And to as for to geue euyll names to suche folke as are so euyll in dede: lette hym call yt raylynge at hys pleasure / but howe so euer yt be in me. I wote well that some other haue done so, yt yet were no raylours / excepte saynte Poule were a raylour, when he called hys carleshe kepers dogges, & when he called the chyef preste a whyted wal, whych was a spyghtful word amōg them / & except saint Policarpus rayled, when he calleth ye heretike Ma[…] cyon the deuyls eldeste son, & excepte our souyour rayled, when he called ye scribes & the pharysyes hyprocytes.

But then yt I cal thē agayn good names: this thynge lo this good man rekeneth a very monstrouse maner, to make theym both good and badde. But this is a mōstre lo of euery mā ny[…] makynge. For so call not I them alone, but ye whole people to, in such maner of spekynge as euery man vseth, whē he calleth one self noughty lad, both a shrewd boy and a good sonne / the tone in the proper symple speche, the tother by the fygure of ironye or antiphrasys. And by a lyke maner figure saīt Hierome agaynst the olde heretyke Vigilantius, calleth hym somtyme Vigilantius, and somtime agayne Dormitantius / and so he calleth that heretyke two contrary names, as well as I do these.

And where he can not te[…] what I mene by the new broched bretherhed: that am I cōtent to tell hym / I mene that they be a barell of poysen, that the deuyll hath late sette abroche, and laboreth by them to poysen other mē.

And where he can not bere it, that they beynge suche shold be called by the name of euangelycalles: I well allowe the good mynde of the good man, that he therin sheweth hym self so to bere to the fayth, that it greueth hym to here heretykes called by such a good graciouse name. But he must consyder that it is now, and some yeres al redy passed hath ben, the name by which they haue bene as cōmenly called in all the cuntreys catholyke, as by theyr owne very name of heretyke. And thoccasyon therof grewe fyrst of that that thē self toke y• name euangelicall, arrogantly to them self both by theuangelycall lyberty that they pretended, as folke that wolde lyue vnder the gospell and vnder no mannes lawe besyde / & bycause they wolde also byleue nothynge ferther, than ye very scrypture, all which they take now vnder the name of the gospell. For ye new lawe they take for nothyng ellys, but for the declaracyon and perfeccyon of the olde.

Now whan they had taken thys name comēly vpon them self, the catholikes tellyng them, yt they neyther lyued nor byleued accordynge to the gospell letted not yet to call them by the same name to / & that not to theyr prayse, but to theyr rebuke & shame. And some turned in wrytyng yt name of theyrs in scorne, & in stede of euāgelicos, wrote thē pseudo euāgelicos.

Now yf this man can not bere it, that I call them as the old folke do: though I wolde my selfe leue it for his pleasure, yt wolde make ye wote well but a small chaunge. For other folke wyll call thē styll yet by what name they lyst, and neyther I nor he can lette them.

But to thentent he may be somewhat the lesse discontent with me, for callynge heretykes by a good name: he shal vnderstande that vpon suche occasyon & such maner, it is no newe begon thyng so to do. For a certayne sorte there were of the heretikes that were ye Manicheis, which were fyrst amonge them selfe called by ye name of Cathari, that is to wyt pure and clene / & afterward the catholikes called thē by ye same name. And so doth saynt Austayne also call theym in his wrytynge. But yet he declareth bothe theyr false heresyes, & theyr secrete shamefull lyuyng for such, that though he call them by the name of pure and clene, as we call now these bretherne euangelycall, yet he ment that they were neither pure nor clene in dede, no more than these folke in lyuynge or bylyefe, folow the very gospell in dede.

But than cometh he forth vppon me somwhat solempnly with a very foly and with a solempne lye. For lo good readers these are his wordes I warraunt you wyse and trewe.

And now wyll I saye somwhat ferther concernyng thys mater, and that is thys. I meruayle mych, how mayster More durste for offence of hys conscyence, and for drede of the kynges dyspleasure, and of the whole realme, brynge vp such a slaunderouse name in this realme, and put it in prynt, that may lyghtly touche not onely many of the comon people, but also of the greatest of the realme, as well spyrytuall as temporall; yf he and other of hys affynyte ly[…]te to call any of them one of the blessed bretherne, or of the good brethern. And in this poynt it semeth, that he forgate the honour of the realme, whyche he semed moch to regarde, whan he sayd: he coulde not thynke it to the honour of the realme, that other realmes shuld wene, that the whole clergye of this realme shulde be so farre fallen into the grudge and indygnacyon of the whole temporaltye, as he sayth it is spoken to be in the sayd treatyse, whyce he calleth the boke of diuisyon: for certaynly it is more dyshonour to the realme, to haue it noysed, that the realme is full of heretykes, than that the temporaltye grudgeth agaynste the spyrytualty, and so he esheweth and fleeth the lesse sclāder, though it were all true that he sayeth and renneth heedlynge into the greater.

And now wyll I saye somewhat ferther concernynge thys mater / and that is thys. I meruayle mych how this man durst for offence of his conscyence & dyspleasure of god, brynge vp suche a slaunderouse lye vppon me, and wryte it in hys boke, that I sholde wryte in myne apologye, that the realme is full of heretykes.

If the case were nowe no better vppon my parte, nor no wurse vpon his, but that in myne apologye there coulde no suche sayenge be founden: what rebuke were it yet vnto hym, yf he were a man openly knowen by name? as now the shame cleueth not on hys chekes, but he soone shaketh it of whyle hys name is not at hys booke. But nowe syth that in myne apologye I playnely wryte the contrary: what wordes wyl there serue to saye to thys man the thynges, that he were in this poynt wery wel worthy to here.

R[…]de good chrysten readers the xlvii. chapyter of myne apology, begynnynge in the.260. lefe and there shall you playnely se, that I saye playne the contrary. For where as thys pacyfyer dyd in hys boke of dyuisyon vnder the name of some other bylye of lykelyhed some of the spyrytualty than, surmyttynge that they as of polycy noysed that the realme is full of heretykes more than it is in dede / as he now bylyeth me here, surmysynge that I do say the same: ye shall there se that I shewe it to be vnlykely, yt any polytyke spyrytuall man wolde so saye for polycy / syth so to say were for them for the cause that I there shew, very far agaynst good polycy. And there I ferther shew, yt some heretykes haue […]alsely made that noyse, and there I tell for what cause. And afterward ī fo[…] 268. I shew yt for all theyr besy bragyng, they be yet in dede but a few.

Now good reades whan I thus haue wryten there in both the places so open and so playne, that the realm is not full of heretykes, nor hath ther in but a few, though y• few be in dede ouer many / & growen mo also by neglygence in some parte, than there hath bene in some late yeres passed: how may this man fynde in his harte for shame, to wryte in this wyse? and as it were with such authoryte so solempnely chekke me falsely, for writyng yt the realm is full, & thā excuse his lyke fawte by myne / & yet in the cōparison make myne the greater to? But now is all the craft of ye comparyson dyscouered, & the glory of that argumēt defaced, whyle you se yt his fawt is trew, & that myne he feyneth & fyndeth not in myn boke, but playn and expressely the contrary / and that he spynneth that fyne lye without flex, fetchyng it out of his own body as the spider spynneth her cobwebbe. And thus is my fawte fayre wyped awaye, & hys lyeth styll in his necke, and another now layed vnto it.

Now as thys was no lytell foly for hym to lese his credence with that openlye, that myght be so soone and so playnely controlled and reproued: so is his fyrst poynt also no lesse foly than that, wherin he merueyleth so mych that I dare for my conscyence, and for dyspleasure of my prynce, & of the whole realme, brynge vp that slaunderouse name in the realme, to call these heretykes the bretherne / consyderynge that it maye lyghtely touche not onely any man of ye comen people, but also of the greatest of the realme, as well spyrytuall as temporall, yf eyther my selfe or any of myn affinite lyste to call them, one of the blessed brethern or of ye good brethern

This is forsoth one the most symple sought out foly, that euer I yet sawe set out with hygh wordes so solempnely. For fyrst as for to call thē by the name of the bretherne, is nothynge of my bryngynge vppe, but a worde walkynge in euery mannes mouth (whyche thynge I can not byleue but thys man wel knoweth hym selfe, as straunge as he maketh the mater) and bygonne by the good blessed bretherne them selfe, as wel appereth vppon theyr owne letters, inough to be shewed at sondry seasōs sent bytwene them.

Now touchynge the great fere & perel that he putteth, leste I or some of myne affynyte may slaunder any of the greatest of the realme, yf we lyste to call any suche man one of the good bretherne: the good man maye take his rest I warraunt hym, & shal not nede to breke his slepe therfore. For fyrst as for myne affynyte is not very great. For I haue none affinyte but as I thynke hym selfe hath and euery other mā, that is to wyt eyther by gossepred or by maryage / excepte he mene to call all the trewe catholykes myne affynyte, and all the tother his owne. And than whyche waye so euer he mene, a sewde slaunderouse worde were as lykely to happen in one of his affinite as in one of myne. And as for my self the pacifyer hym selfe is (as hys some sayes shewe) somwhat more set vppon an appetyte of slawnderynge than am I, whych bere a lytell more reuerence to the great men of the realme, spyrituall and temporall bothe, and more honest mynd vnto the small all, than wrongfully to dyffame eyther great or small, by callynge eyther the tone or the tother, any of ye blessed byched new broched brethe[…]hed / excepte onely such as by theyr own open wrytynges, or by theyr open wordes, be playnly proued heretykes.

But yet cōsider wel good reders, what a wyse reason thys is yt he bryngeth forth. For what parell is there of such slaunder, more by this name of the good bretherne than by the tother name of heretykes? is not ye olde name of heretykes, as slaunderouse as this new name of the blessed brethern[…] what name can this good man deuyse vs hym selfe to call them by, in whyche name the same parell of slaunder may not fall as well as in this? Men may by thys wyse reason call thē by no name at al, for fere lest I or myne affinite might yf we lifte, call not onely any of the people, but also ye grettest lordys both spyrituall and temporall, by the same name, and so brynge them in slaunder. For the slawnder is all one what so euer the name be, whan the thynge is all one that is ment and signifyed therby.

And this man vseth hym selfe in this place therfore, very circūspectely for this poynte in this chapyter, where he speketh of heretykes after his.iiii. sortys of folke before. For he calleth them there by no name at all hym selfe, but sayth of ye fourth sort: These be the wurst sorte of people before all other, excepte onely an other sorte of people, whiche syre Thomas More in hys apologye calleth somtyme desperate wreches, sometyme starke heretykes, and somtyme the blessed bretherne, and sometyme the noughty bretherne &c. So that this good mā him self here, lyke a true faythfull man, affirmeth them nought / & such & so nought, as ther be none wurse. But name (as it semeth) for fere of occasyō of slaunder, he durst here none call them hym selfe but sayth they be they, whome I call thus and thus.

Well I wyl make no vow therof as yet / but I wyll peraduenture at a leysour here after vppon better ad uisement, vse the same cyrcūspeccyō and polycye that I lerne of his ensample here / and whan I speke of suche maner folke, geue thē no name at all my selfe / but for a token that men maye wytte whome I mene, I shall saye those felowes I mene yt saint Poule perdy calleth heretykes so / &that be all they that obstinately holde any selfe mynded opynyon, contrary to the doctryne that the comen knowen catholyke chyrche, techeth & holdeth for necessary to saluacyon.

After all thys in the.xiiii. and the xv. lefe, he asketh me wyth a solēpne dreuen processe, whyther I wolde not thynke it good and weldone / that all such as haue authoryte to punysh heretykes, shold before they punysh them, amēde fyrst theyr own fawtes. And I thynke yes in good faith, that it were very well done / and I wold that euery man wolde so do in dede, that eyther sholde correcte heretyke or any malefactour els.

But than agayn I aske hym, that though this were weldone, yf euery man wolde waxe as good as another good man wolde wyshe hym, and as hym selfe wold wysshe another man to be: yet yf there were some yt were not so sodaynly so well dysposed, as to mende theyr own fawtes so soone as the dewty of theyr offyce wolde requyre of necessyte, that they sholde do correccyon vppon the fawtes of some other folke: sholde they not yet do it for all that in the meane whyle, and other folke to whom it apperteyned / be boundē to assyste them therin, though theyr owne fawtes were not all amended yet.

To this question so he hath in the same place answered me yes, as I haue hym to the toth[…]r. And thus good readers this good man and I, after our sore conflycte in the tother mater, haue yet in these two poyntes stryken handes agayn, and be god be thāked metely well agreed togyther, god holde it.