The, vi. chapyter

HIs syxth chapyter begynneth in ye.xvi. lefe, wherin he shewed that I in myne apologye misse take the letter of his sayd treatyce / and he telleth which wordꝭ. But he telleth neyther in what place of his booke his wordes are, nor in what place of my booke you maye fynde myne. Those two thynges he leueth out, bycause he wolde as he sayd in the begynnynge, not folowe thorder of my chapyters, but take ye waye that sholde be best to the playn openynge of the trouth. But for as mych as me semeth that to the playn openynge of treuth, the redyer waye is to reade fyrste bothe the places, & than this his answere after: ye may therfore good readers fynd both hys wordꝭ and myne in my apologye / his in the lefe. 123 / and myne agaynste which he now reasoneth ī his answer ye shall fynd fo. 127. And now good readers yf you reade and consyder those two places fyrst, and than compare well the wordes of myne apologye there, with the wordes of his answere here: it shall suffyce for this mater. For there shal you se wel that I mysse take not ye letter of his wordes. For I say not nay, but that hys wordes go onely agaynst spyrytuall men / but his reason runneth out agaynst euery kynd of men spyrytuall & tēporall to. And there I shew also, the reason wherfore and why. And therfore I wene it wyl appere plain, that I myssetake not the letter of his treatyse at all / & that his reason runneth out in dede agaynst euery kynde of men. For there is neyther spyrytuall man nor temporall, but he maye take harme by habundaunce.

But so is there as I there saye, neyther, spyrytuall man nor temporall, but he maye wyth haboundaunce do good.

But nowe the declaracyon of his mynde in thys answere, mendeth al the mater. For here he declareth yt by these wordꝭ of his in a maner stranglynge: he meaneth the mynyshynge of some feruour, as though a man wolde say that by almost killyng with a clubbe, he ment the geuynge of a fylyppe in the forhed wyth his lytle fynger.

But syth that in this.vi. chapite[…] of hys, his great mortall stranglyng is nowe strangeled away, and tourned into venyall synne: we shall for this mater trouble you no lēger / but eueryman maye take haly water and go home to dyner, for seruyce is all done here for to day.

The counsayle of saynte Bernarde that he there speketh of to the pope Eugenius, is in good fayth as me thynketh very well brought in. And I wolde aduyse euery spiritual man to folowe yt, and to take good temporal men to hym, and let theym do all hys temporall besynesse for hym. This thynke I good as for myne owne mynde, but yf there be in any parte any lawes made all redy to the contrarye, by suche folke as yt can not bycome me to contrall. Howe be yt I suppose that myche parte of theyre temporall besynesse is done by temporall men in dede.

As for his acte of parliament that he speketh of I suppose veryly that the clergye wolde not be agaynst yt. And suche actes are there all redy made mo then one, good and suffycyent / but yf he meane to sette an addycyon therto, that […]he kynges grace sholde expressely be bounden by the acte, that yf he gaue any lycence of mortysynge into the chyrche, yt shold be voyde / excepte such cases as thys good man lyste to lymyte and geue hym leue. Syth his hyghnes is now moued by this good mā here therto: his grace may agre to it when yt pleaseth hym.

As for the great mater that he maketh, of that I neuer in all the tyme that I was conuersaunt in the court, could perceyue any of the noble men aboue the nombre of seuen, and yet not nowe so many, that euer thought yt good that any possessyons of the chyrche, sholde wyth oute a lawfull cause be taken awaye there from: I meruayle mych what he meaneth, and what subtyll conceyte he conceyueth in his wyse breste, that he so mutereth, and mūbleth vpon that word as though suche communicacyon eyther on the tone syde or the tother, were of suche hygh importaunce, that yt were eyther felonye or some heyghnouse mysprisyō, eyther in tellyng the tale agayn, or els in kepyng yt counsayle so longe.

For I wote nere in good faythe in whyche of the twayne this good man fyndeth ye faute, or whether he fynde any or none. But yf he fynde any: in which of the twayne so euer he fynd yt, he fyndeth but his owne foly. For nowe shall you good readers se, what lytle insyght the man hath in any thyng that he readeth. Fyrst he reherseth a parte of my wordꝭ wryten in myne Apologye fo. 130, where I saye that I neuer founde in all the tyme whyse I was conuersaunt in the courte, of all the nobylyte of this lande. aboue the nombre of seuen, yt euer I perceyued to be of y• mynd, that yt were eyther ryght, or reasonable, or coulde be to the realme profytable, wythout lawfull cause to take any possessyons awaye frome the clergye.

Nowe vpon these wordꝭ ye shall se what he gathereth, by whych ye shal se what wyt and what lernynge the man hath. These are his wordes lo.

Syth mayster More sayth that he hath not knowen aboue seuen (wherof he sayth thre are dede) that were of the mynde that yt were reasonable wythout cause to take possessyons fro the clergye / in whyche wordes yt is coucluded, that he knew seuen of that mynde, whose opynyons yt lyketh hym to reherse and putte in writynge and in prynte also.

This man hath a special insyght in inclusyues and exclusyues, when he weneth that in my wordes it were included, that I knewe.vii. of that mynde, that yt were reasonable to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche wythout cause. My wordes you wote well that I neuer knewe aboue seuen, that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche, thought eyther ryght, or resonable, or that yt coulde be to the realme profytable. What include these wordꝭ now? Do they include as he saith, y• I say that I knew.vii. yt thought yt reasonable? Thys mā ys so connynge in hys inclusyues & exclusyues, that he dyscerneth nothynge bytwene compulatyues and dysiunctyuys. This man I se well neuer lerned the rule that almoste euery boy can, that to the veryte of a dysiunctyue, yt suffyseth any one parte to be trew. Let hym now lerne yt therfore / and thenne shall he perceyue that my wordꝭ include no farther, but that I saye that I knewe seuen which among them all thought some one of those thre thynges, that is to wyt, eyther some of them some one, and some of them some other or els al seuē some one of those thre thinges, that is to wyt, eyther ryght, or reasonable, or profytable, wythoute any determynacyon whyche of the thre. And neyther includeth those wordes of myne that I say all seuen thoughte yt ryght, nor that all seuen thoughte yt reasonable, no nor yet that all seuen thought yt profytable. But yt hangeth not vppon hys determynacyon, but vpon myn owne declaracyō, which of these thre thinges whyche of those same seuen thought or whyche one of the thre they all thoughte / and neuer one of those thre thynges is determinately included to any one of the seuen. For yf I wolde saye that I neuer knewe in all my lyfe any man aboue the nomber of seuen, that had ben eyther at Alkayre or at Salem, or at Bizance: do these wordes include that I saye that I haue knowen seuen that haue ben at Salem? That am I sure they do not. But I maye well stande by those wordes, yf I sayde after, that I haue knowen seuen persons that haue b[…]n al seuen at Bizance / but as for Alkayre or Salē I neuer knewe any one that hadde ben at any one of them both.

And in lyke wyse wyll I well stande by myne other wordes and veryfye theym wyth a good excludyng of this mannes includyng. For I say and very trouthe yt is, that I neuer found any noble man aboue the nombre of seuen, that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the clergye, thought yt eyther ryght or reasonable, or that yt coulde be for the realme profytable. I founde not I saye aboue seuen, that thought any one of all these thre / is not this trew yf I found seuen, yt thought all thre? yes forsoth trewe ynough though I neuer found any one, yt euer thought any two of the thre. And nowe therfore though I neuer founde any noble man so vnryghtuouse, or so vnreasonable, as to thynke yt ryght or reasonable, wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye any possessyons from the clergye: yet haue I founde seuē that haue thought, yf ryghte and reason wolde bere yt, they coulde tell howe that as for worldely polycye, some of the possesseons taken awaye myght be to the realme profytable And some one hathe thought that yt wolde be peraduenture profytable to the realme, that the lordes hadde the landes whose auncestours had mortysed theym. And peraduenture he that so thought, shold not haue lost a grote by yt. And some other hathe thought that it wold be more profytable to put yt into hospytalles of some certayn new fashyoned foundacyon, and therof neyther make prestes the maysters, nor no laye men neyther, but some good sad honest vertuouse wydos, that wolde be tendable & tendre to syke folke, and that shold yerely yelde a compte vnto thordynarye. And some other haue thought yt better to dyuyde & cant yt amonge good pore husband men, that shold tyl the ground theyr own handes, & take the lande for theyr labour, with dyuers other dyuyses mo, euery man after hys own mynde. And what harme was there nowe in any of all theyre myndes, yt thys good wise man wold haue my wordes seme so heygnouse, vppon a sentence that hym selfe includeth in theym / and whyche sentence of hys, reason excludeth from theym / and in whyche as you playnly se proued, thys man woteth nere what he meaneth. And to thentent yt he shold wel knowe that the mater is nothynge ferefull: therfore wrote I that thre were dede, bycause he sholde well wyt that there were yet the more parte a lyue. And therfore yf the good man thynke any great heygnouse offence in the mater: lette hym come to me hym selfe, and I shall brynge hym to some of theym, that shall not make yt straunge to say agayne the same to hym selfe / and than he may vse it at his pleasure as his hygh wysedome shal thynke conuenyent.

Than sayth he farther in the secōde syde of the.xviii. lefe, yt he can not tel what cause I wold thynke a cause resonable, to take any possessions from ye chyrche. But yet syth yt is implyed in my wordes, that some cause lawefull and resonable there may be: he thynketh he sayth, y• peraduenture yf I were asked the question therin, by thē yt haue authoryte to do it, I wolde shewe what I ment therby. There shal in good faith nede no gret solēne examynacyon of me by men of authoryte for that mater. For I wyll not stycke to tel yt vnto hym selfe / but haue tolde yt al redy to hym and euery man ellys that lyste to reade yt, a good whyle a go in my booke of the Supplycacyon of soules / and there maye thys good man go seke yt yf yt please hym, and then vse yt as yt lyke hym.

But fynally after his harte some what eased, he cometh to hym selfe agayne, and endeth the chapyter very well / wyshynge the clergye the grace that the apostles had, and declarynge that he neuer desyred them thapostles pouertye / and exhortyng theym that haue aboundaunce of possessyons, to be well ware so to vse yt as yt be not a let of the deuocyon that they sholde haue to god, and the charyte that they sholde shewe to theyre neyghbour. In these thre thynges he sayth as me thinketh very specially well. And I praye you hartely good readers euery man the[…] rather at my pore request, what so euer he wrote before, thynke now that he ment then but thus.