The.ix. chapyter

HIs.ix. chapyter begynneth in the xxx. lefe. And his formare wordꝭ which he therwyth defendeth and myne answere also therto, ye shall se in the xix. chapyter of myne apologye fo. 119. Whyche when you haue good readers there ones redde ouer / than forthwyth whyle yt ys freshe in remembraunce / retourne agayne vnto this, the.ix. chapyter of his dyaloge / and than iudge whether it any thyng touche the poynte or not. For al thys chapyter is spent in preachynge of restytucyon, full wel and ful trewly forsoth / and whych in my pore mynd I very well allowe / and wold haue allowed in lyke wyse his fyrste boke very well, yf there had ben no worse wordes in yt than suche. But nowe the mater standeth all in thys, that thys man maketh there as though the spyrytuallye were very besye to procure men and to enduce the people, to geue money to trentalles, to founde chaunteryes, and obytes, and to obteyne pardons, and to go vppon pylgrymages, leuynge theyr dettes vnpayed, and restytucyon vnmade, whyche thynges shold be done fyrst / and that thys ys the maner of the multitude of the spyritualtie. In this standeth the questyon. And therfore is now the poynt, not whether dettes be fyrst to be payed, & satisfaccyon of wronges fyrste to be made, byfore al these other thynges, wherin thys man sayeth here surely full well / but whyther (as he wolde haue yt seme by his boke of diuisyon) yt ye multitude of the spyrytualtie, yt is to wit eyther al saue a fewe, or at the leste wyse farre the moste parte, do solycyte and labour lay people to the contrarye maner / that is to wyt, to do those other thynges, rather than to pay theyr dettꝭ or make restitucyō of theyr wrōgis. This is I say ye point. And of thys poynt wherin al the mater standeth, this man in this.ix. chapiter of his speketh not one worde. And therfore in this thing, stādeth myn answere made in ye sayd.xx. chapiter of myne apolpgye clene and clere vntou[…]hed, as euery mā may perceyue that readeth yt.

And therfore where in ye secōde syde of his.xxxii. lefe, this man saith thus.

And to thentent I wold haue this mater the better loked vp[…]on: I wolde here aduertyse syr Thomas More, not by waye of argument, but for clerenesse of conscyence, to consydre whyther ye the more charytable waye, fyrste to make restytucyon and paye dettes, and releue extreme pouerte, and then to do the tother yf he haue to do bothe / or elles to do the fyrste and let the tother passe.

For this his good aduertysement I ve[…]y hartely thanke hym / & answere hym as hym selfe wolde wysshe I sholde, that surely me thynketh as he doth, that the more charytable waye of the twayne were that yt hym self here moueth.

But than lo by and by, he geueth me another good lesson, wherwith he wolde I sholde amende myne owne fawte, that he wolde it shold seme I had in myne apologye made agaynst hym. For than lo thus goeth he ferther forth.

And yf he thynke that this waye that I moue be the more cherytable waye, that than he helpe it forwarde, rather than the other / and than not to blame any man that maketh that mocyon, as though he were agaynst trētallys, obitis, & such other. For he is not agaynst them dyrectely / but onely entendeth to haue them chaūged into a more cherytable orde[…]. For though prayours be ryght expedyent and helthfull to the soule: yet they serue not in all ca[…]es as to dyscharge dettes or restytucyons, where there ys inough to paye them wyth / no more than there can be founden any one salue, that can hele all maner of soores.

I neyther haue done that I wote of, nor wyllyngly intēde to do, blame hym for any part of this cherytable mocyō / but thynke his mocyon ryght good, and that the fruyte therof yf it be folowed, wyt[…]e more yet than him selfe sayth he myndeth. For he sayth as you se, that he myndeth but to chaunge obitys and trentallys and those other thynges into a more cherytable order / that is to wytte in to payeng of dettes and recompensyng of wronges in them that haue not of theyr owne bysyde / and in them that haue than to paye the dettes and recompence wronges fyrste, and do the tother after. But me thynketh there wyll come yet a ferther profyte of this order to. For where as here we speke but of hym that payeth his det and recōpenseth his wrongꝭ, of whiche folke many a man is able well to do ye tother whan bothe those twayn be done / there is to the tother sort of menne also bysyde, to whome those wronges are done, and those dettes owynge, of whyche sorte there be many, that yf theyr wronges were ones recompensed them, & theyr dettꝭ payed them, were able and wolde do those other thynges also them selfe, which now for lacke be not able / & so sholde there of lykelyhed be the selfe thynges yt brynge (as his fyrste boke sayth) rychesse into the chyrch, by this good order encreaced. And therfore not onely haue I no cause, to blame thys good man for the mocyō of this good cherytable order / but also no more haue the multytude of the prestes, whiche myghte of lykelyhed wynne as mych by thys waye as by the tother, and more excepte the multytude of prestes wolde for ye redynesse to take it where it is all redy, moue theym that haue it to do these other thyngꝭ fyrst, & leue theyr dettꝭ vnpaied & theyr wrōgꝭ vnrecōpēsed, which yt the multitude of prestꝭ do / I neuer herd yet a[…]y honest laye man, that wolde for very shame say. For I thynke it were harde to mete with a prest that w[…]re so wreched, but that yf he were asked in yt point his ad[…]ce & coūsayle, he wold in so playn a point though it were but for very shame well & playnely coūsayle the trouth. And if percase there were some foū den so shamelesse, that they wolde geue counsayle contrary: yet am I very sure they shu[…]de be farre the fewer parte / and not as thys good mannys fyrste booke sayth, the more parte and the multytude.

And therfore syth this order that this good mā here moueth, is so good and so cherytable: I neuer blamed hym for the mocyō. But though this mociō in this boke be good: I myght well and so I dyd, blame his other booke / not for this mocyon, but for another mater, that is bycause it labored vnder pretexte of an vntrew report, to brynge the spyrytualtye in slawnder and obloquy amonge the temporaltye, by makynge men wene that of this cherytable order whyche he now moueth, the multytude of the spyritualty induced men to ye cōtrary.

This is lo the thynge that I blamed. And therfore lyke as thys good man sayeth, that one plaster can not hele all soores: so surely thys same salue of this good cherytable mocion can not serue this good cherytable man, to salue and hele well, this vncherytable soore.

In this mocion, of this cherytable order, thys good manne waxeth so warme, that of a good zele he falleth in remembraunce of the soule (which our lorde perdon) of the moste noble prynce of very famouse memory kynge Henry the.vii. father to the most excellent prynce our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is / wherin after mencyon made of obitys and chauntrees, lettyng the dew examynacyon requysyte for restytucion, sodaynly thus he sayth. How be it the ryght noble prynce of blessed memory kynge Henry the.vii. father of our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is, wylled restytucyons to be made. But how hys wyll was performed I can not tell. How be it what so euer was done therin: I suppose hys good entent su[…]fyseth to hym.

What yf thys good man can not tell? By lykelyhed there is nothyng owynge to hym therof. For yf there were: than were it lykely yt he could tell. For he coulde tell than that all the wyl were not performed. I haue herde I wote well that the kyng our souerayne lorde, delyuered great substaunce into thexecutours handes, to fulfyll the wyll wythall. Whyche how they haue bestowed, thys good man maye (yf he haue thauthoryte) call them to the rekenynge. And yf he neyther haue authorite to call for the accompte, nor haue nothyng owyng to hym neyther: the mater than towcheth not hym so nere, nor so specyally perteyneth vnto hym yt he shold greatly nede to geue all the worlde warnynge thus, yt hym selfe is not made of counsayle, how the kynges wyll is performed.

But here wyll this good man say yt I do but mocke him / wherin I wyl not greately stycke wyth hym. But surely for my pore wyt, me thynketh it somwhat more ciuilite, in some such poyntes as this is, a lytell merely to mokke hym, thā wyth odyouse ernest argumētes, seryousely to preace vppon hym. Whyche I wolde also be very loth to do, for chargyng of myn owne conscyence. And therfore in all thynges yt me thynke are of greate weyght, though I touche his wordꝭ, I accuse not his own mynde & intent For in good fayth I haue of yt man good trust, yt he meneth no wurse, but wold all thyng were well hym self / but euer more my mynde geueth me, yt some wyly shrewes abuse ye good mannes simplicyte.