The.vii. chapeter

HIs seuenth chapiter begynneth in the.xix. lefe and therin vppon a sex leues / he argeweth agaynste a lytle doute that I moued vpon the begynnynge of his fyrste chapyter of hys dyuysyon / whych wordes of his and myne theruppon begynne in myne apologye fo. 101. And the same poynt is touched agayne there fo. 106. When you haue there redde what I […]y: then may you rede here hys answere, wherin he declareth ye mater, and argueth, it by cases of law, mych after the maner of a motable case, ful wel fauoredly in good fayth / and wyth longe labour proueth at laste, that yt must be taken in such wyse as he seeth, yt among other construcciōs I cōstrued his minde my self, though I was loth to do so, bycause yt waye was the worste for hym selfe. But nowe he remedyeth that wyth a lyne or twayne[…] wherin he declareth yt he ment not to preferre euery seculare preste byfore those that are in relygyon. wherin I wold haue trusted him as well vppon his worde, as vppon the reason that he layeth for it now / whyche saue for the truste that I haue to his word, I wold wene he neuer thoughte on whan he wrote the dyuysyon / but rather ended ye clause in suche wyse as yt happed, wythout any respect peraduēture to thēcrease and growynge of the sentence in the ende.

I was ones halfe in mynde here to haue kepte scoles wyth hym yet in this poynte ones agayne, euyn all of pleasure / and to haue broughte yt yet agayne in questyone, whether the cyrcūstaunces of his wordꝭ were able to proue, that he ment otherwise than he now argueth yt it muste nedꝭ be taken. And then yf the cyrcumstances so dyd, whether commen vsage and acceptaunce of a worde sholde agaynste the cyrcumstaunces of the mater, haue lyke strength in all other thynges, as yt hath in maters of law / and whether the reason vsed in the courtes in maters of law, be of lyke strength in euery other thynge as they be when they be made in mate[…]s of lawe / and of lyke vygour and force in euery place abrode, as they be in the courtes in whyche they haue ben longe receued and accepted for sure and stable groundes.

And whyther in this poynte betwene hym and me, beynge no mater of the law nor perteynyng to the iudgement of any court, but to be consydered by the whole people in euery mannes reason at large, the cases of the lawe of thys realme that he […] […] bryngeth in, whyche be iudged and sure, and shold serue the tone parte in the lawe, though the mater were the weyghte of a thousande pounde, sholde hycause we be englyshe men, and our mater wryten in Englande and in Englyshe wordes, stande for a sure and an insoluble argument, though the lawes both ciuyle and canon that are called the comen lawes of all chrystendome besyde vs, were as peraduenture they be in the selfe same cases, full and whole to the contrarye.

And yet wolde I besyde thys a lytle haue assayed, so to shake his cases of London and Mychelmasse, yt per aduenture to many a man in London betwene this and Michelmas, shold they neuer haue semed lyke vnto our mater, by that tyme that I had ones declared them the dyfference.

These poyntes and happely mo to, was I whē I redde his answere halse mynded as I saye to haue brought in, and dysputed wyth hym vpon this mater. For I was waxen with ye readyng of his answere very mery, and waxen me thought a yong man agayn / and semed set at a vacacyon mote with hym in some Inne of the chauncery, bycause of hys comen entendement, and his proper casys of lawe.

But than I consydered that as I was in the redynge of his answere mery: so was hym selfe I saw well in the wrytynge wery / and other readers that were no lawyers, wolde in the readynge waxe almost as wery. Than sawe I also, that whan hym selfe had all sayed, he lyked not hys owne all the beste / but after all hys payne taken in the answeryng, seyng that his answere lyked hym not, he was fayne to fall to another waye, & telleth me that there nedeth none answere to that poynte at all, bycause that there is no frute he sayth in that obieccyon.

Now therfore yf thobieccyon be frutelesse, and therfore thanswere nedelesse, and verily frutelesse to: nowe to reply thereto were labour halfe loste and more. And therfore good readers for as myche as to the answere made by the maner, no law putteth vs ferther to reply: ye mater is at a demurrour in thys poynt, and we at your iugemēt, wherein ye may vse your wysedome and iuge it euyn as you fynde it. Wherin the best that he can aske, is but to be dysmyssed, & iudge that he ment not to preferre the state of chauntry prestes before the state of relygyouse persōs / but ment as he now declareth his minde (whiche very few folke coulde before as I suppose haue gessed) that the varyaunce bytwen prestes and prestes, that is to wyt bytwene seculare prestes and seculare prestes, is more to be lamented than bytwene prestes & relygyouse, or bytwene relygyouse and relygyouse, bycause ye varyaūce bytwene prestes and prestes is more marked and more notable than any of the tother, bycause the prestes go more abrode.

Now yf this exposicyō of his mynde may serue to quyte hym now: (which I am content it do) it is all I promyse you that it maye do. For it wyll neuer serue hym to recouer dammages. For he can neuer blame no man that perceyued not that before, that is skant credyble yet.

But yet bycause he so myche incusketh the lacke of fruyte in many of myne obieccyons, and that they be no maters of no morall vertue: I wyll not answere hym wyth the lyke / and saye that in many of hys pretended causes of dyuisyon is no fruit at all, nor no morall vertue neyther / as in procurynge the people to byleue vntrewly, that the prelates handle men vncherytably, and for heresyes vexe them wrongfully, & geue occasyō that some peryshe both in body and soule / whyche yf the ordynaryes had handeled them cherytably, had ben in bothe twayne saued / and that it wylbe very harde to fynd so myche as any one spyrytuall man suche, as hym selfe deuyseth and aduyseth, that none but suche sholde be suffred to be iudge in heresye / and laborynge also the good lawes of thys realme and of all chrystendome to be chaunged, to the ease of heretykes, yt haue ben made for the repressynge of heresyes / wyth suche other thynges lyke that are in his boke of dyuysyon mo than I euer wrote worde of yet / in whiche (as I haue often sayd) for as mych as I sē yt he professeth hym selfe to hate and abhorre these heresyes, yt these folke now holde, whom saynt poule calleth heretikes (I dare not now for hym but whan I forget my selfe call theym by none other name) I wolde with good wyll that men shold thynke he ment none hurt. But in the wordes of the wrytynge, taken after the comen vsage and acceptaunce of spekynge, as he wyll in thys his.vii. chapyter haue me take them, there is neyther morall vertue nor frute, but full vnfrutefull vyce.

But as I sayd, I wyll not in defence of myne[…], answere hym with ye fawtes of his. For myne were neuer the better though his be nought to. But I saye that myne obieccyons in myne apologye be not frutelesse, bycause they defende the truthe, & make good folke ꝑceyue both what harme it were to byleue suche euyll lyes, & what dammage it were to put awaye suche good lawes / and how vnreasonable it were in other mennes fawtꝭ to take small thyngꝭ for very heyghnouse and great / or for them that in a felesshyp are fawty, not to bere dyspleasure onely to theyr persons, but to be at dyuysyon in generall wyth the whole company. And this fruitis there also, that though that boke saye the contrary, straungers such as are here and can rede englysshe, whyche are not ye wote well a few, many yet perceyue by playne proues in myne apologye, that not onely there is no suche great generall causes of dyuysyon as the booke of dyuysyon sayth that there is, but also that there is no such great generyll dyuysyō thorow the realme in dede. These fruytes are there in many of myne obieccyons agaynste hys booke in myne apologye.

Now where as some of myne obieccyons peraduēture, say but eyther lacke of lernynge in hym, or lacke of naturall wytte, syth his name is not at his boke, but he speketh hym selfe vnknowen: this profyte is there in suche obieccyons, that wythout hys rebuke or shame, the readers may by those fawtes perceyue, that the wryter was not of any such specyall qualytees, as the booke wherin so mych euyll was conteyned, sholde be mych lened vnto, for credence and authoryte of the man.

Finally the very selfe obieccyon, wherof he speketh in yt seuenth chapyter of his in his new booke, & sayth there is no profyte in that obieccyon, and that therfore it neded none answere / but he myght graunte me all that euer I saye therin, and yet none effectuall mater were there for all that: therto I saye that loke who so lyste what I saye therin, and he shall fynde that yf this man graunte all yt, he shal graūte in hym self mych more ouersyghte & mych more lacke of lernyng to, than were requysyte in hym that wold put out bokes abrode / and therfore hys wrytyng the lesse to be regarded, whyle hys person is vnknowē / where as yf his person were knowen, he myght be peraduenture perceyued for all that, for suche a specyall man by syde, that hys approued wysedome and lernyng well knowē otherwyse, myght for thestimacyon of his boke, more than countrepayse some suche ouersyghtes as at a tyme myght happely to scape a right wyse man, yt wolde wryte by candellyght whyle he were halfe a slepe.

But than I say ferther yet / that in that obieccyon was a mater of no lytell effect. For takyng that he ment as hym selfe sayth he dyd: his wordes semed playnely to shewe, that he rekened the state of chauntry prestꝭ, to be a state of more perfeccyon than the state of relygyouse folke. And therfore thobieccyon cōtayned mater of great effecte, and whych he mych neded to answere and to declare that he ment not so / but that he ment as he now declareth, that dyuysyon is bytwene seculare prestes, more lamentable than bytwene relygyouse, bycause the seculare prestes be more abrode, and therby theyr varyaunce more knowen. Whyche exposycyon few men I wene wold haue thought vpon before. But now that he sayth he ment so: I am very well content therwyth, and wolde that all folke sholde take it so to / & yet is it ye wote well but very wynter ware, and a scu[…]e as colde as a […]ay.