The.viii. chapyter

HIs.viii. chapiter begynneth in the secūde side of his xxv. lefe, and pretēdeth to answere my wordes wryten agaynste his, in the.xix. chapiter of myne apology, whyche begynneth folio. 116.

And now he sayth that I say there, that I wote not wel what he meneth in that he sayth that the spyrytualtye call the worldely honour of the chyrche and of spyritual persons, the honour of god. And therfore he sayeth here, that he wyll, & so doeth declare therin, what he there ment therby.

But here is now ye crafte. where as I did there shew what I thought he ment therby, and therfore made answere to those thyngꝭ yt I thought he there ment: now the mater beyng chaunged here, by hys new declaracyon: he bryngeth in myne answers made there, and confuteth them for insuffycyent now, whan hys new declaracyon hath made a chaunge in the mater / as though I had than men[…] […]o answere this, that I was not than ware that he wolde now saye, nor I wene hym selfe neyther.

But rede fyrste good readers the xix. chapyter of myne apologye begynnyng fo. 116. and there shall you se those wordes of his suffycyently answered, for the thynge that me thought he ment. And than after that done, consyder hys answere here / in whyche for all hys holy pyece of a sermon, what doth he tell me. He telleth me that honour is onely dew to vertue, & that no man may couet honour without offence / excepte it be to the honour of god, and that inordyna[…] appetyte of honour is dedely synne / and that yf a spyrytuall man wolde accepte honour by reason of any spirytuall dygnyte, and that god were therby dyshonoured, thanne that honour were not to be called honour but dyshonour / and that yet some laye menne saye that spyrytuall men call it an honour to god.

All thys whole tale for all thys holy sermon is yet to the mater, in mayntenaunce of hys formar wordꝭ whiche he wold here seme to defēde, vtterly tolde in vayne. For fyrste in all this tale he telleth vs not well what he calleth worldly honour, whyche he sayth the spirytualty calleth the honour of god, & which was the thynge that I sayed I wyste nere what honour he ment. For where he wolde seme to declare it: there is hys declaracyon both very bare, & yet agaynst hym to. For in the secunde syde of the xxvi. lefe, he drybbeth in a worde of spyrytuall dygnite / & thus he sayth. Then I mene ferther, that yf any spyrytuall man wolde accepte a worldly honour, by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte, & god were therby dyshonored, as it may be by many circumstances, as yf for suche worldly honour charyte be in any maner broken or denyed, iustyce delayed, any of the.vii. sacramentes not […]nely mynystred: or the people not dylygentely and playnely instructed: that then it is not to be called honour to god, but rather dishonour, and that yet some saye men say, they call it an honour to god. And surely the truth is, that many saye men saye, that for the mayntenaunce of such worldly honour, spyrytuall men bothe relygyouse and seculer, be neglygēt somtyme in such thinges, as be before rehersed, and that yet they call suche worldly honour the honour of god.

Here he hath told vs that yf any spyrytuall man wold accept a worldly honour, by reason of any spyritual dygnite, wherby god were dyshonored, that honour were not honour. But yet he telleth vs not what maner of worldly honour it is that he meneth to be accepted by reason of a spirytuall dignyte / nor yet what maner thynge suche worldly honour is / nor touchyng that spyrytual dignite, he telleth not whyther he mene a desyre in any man to attayne any spyrytual dignite, for some kinde of worldly honour yt he thynketh shold folow theron, or els some worldly honour by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte, that the man hath all redy.

I let passe his cold and vnsauery tolde tale of cheryte denyed, and iustyce delayed, and some of the seuen sacramentes not duly mynystred, for mayntenaunce of such worldely honour, as some spyrituall men bothe seculares and relygyouse by reason of spyrytuall dygnytees accepte, as some laye men saye. A pore tale and a colde by my faye, to be tolde for a cause of an heyghnouse vniuersall dyuysyon. For thys were an endeles dyuysyon, yf euery suche […]awte of some, sholde vppon euery some saye be layed for a cause of dyuysyon agaynst the generall body.

And yet bysyde all thys, I saye that hys fyrste wordes are nothynge mayntened wyth all thys mater. For hys fyrste wordes spake of a consent and agrement, wherin seculare prestes and relygyous, for all the varyaūce bytwene them selfe for other thynges, yet agre togyther about the mayntenaunce of that worldely honour that they call the honour of god. And here he speketh but of another mater that is to wyt yt for the mayntenaunce of wordely honour[…] spyrytuall men both relygyouse and secular be neglygent somtyme, & in some maner breke or denye cheryte, delaye iustyce, & do not dewly ministre some of the seuen sacramentes, nor dylygently & plainely instructe the peple.

All this tale as you se to wche[…]h ye pryuate fawtes of some such, as for the mayntenaūce of that worldly honour which they call goddes honour, thus mysse vse them selfe. But thys tale is nothynge sybbe to hys other tale, that he tolde and I towched before. For that spake of such agremēt all in one, that is to wyt an holdynge togyther whych sygnyfyeth a maynteynynge eche of other agaynst other men, in mayntenaūce of that worldly honour that they call the honour of god, in lyke wyse as for maters of theyr owne, they be one agaynste an other amonge them selfe.

And thus you se playnely good reders, yt this maner of mayntenyng […] […] of his formar wordꝭ, is a clene going from them, and a seuyng of them vnmayntened / and (bycause he cometh vppon me byfore in another place with casys of law) were in the lawe a very playne departure, and sholde in any of the kynges courtes yf I demurred vppon it, vtterly marre all his mater.

And so it appereth that some other some, haue sayd this vnto him sinnys to glose his fyrste wordes wythall. And yet I meruayle that he coulde thynke theyr sayeng worth the rehe[…] synge agayne. For who can byleue yt any spyritual man wold be so madde, as to call worldely honour vsed to goddꝭ dishonour, the honour of god. I can scant byleue that any laye man wolde so tell hym / at the leste wyse not wyth that adieccyon, that he now putteth new therto.

But now yf it so be that vn the tother syde, all spyrytuall men wold wyth one voyce to gether, call the honour of god, that wordly honour that worldely folke do to the chyrche and vnto spyrytuall persons, for the deuocyon that good lay men bere to god and vnto spyrituall ꝑsons for goddis sake, by reason of theyr holy orders and honorable romes that they bere in Chrystes chyrche / though some of theym as this man sayth / sometyme do not theyre dutye therin, but leue some parte of theyr dutyes towarde goddes honour vndone therfore: yet for the deuocyon of the temporall persons that for goddis honour do i[…], they may all well call yt goddes honour in dede. And therfore is thys good man in that poynte full answered, as solemne a mater as he made therof.

But nowe concernynge hys formare wordes of the agrement of all spyrytuall folke to gether, in ye mayntenaunce of theyr wordly honour, for al theyre pryuate dyspleasures and dyssensyons in other thynges among theym selfe / wyth whyche he cometh in after here agayne, and referreth hym to the commen opinyon of mych parte of the people bothe spyrytuall and temporal, whether laye men so saye or not: I saye that though al men so sayde, yet is no man at dyuysyon wyth theym therfore. For there is no cause wherfore any man shold. For yt is none vnreasonable thynge, that syth those thynges whych thys, man speketh of, that is to wyt those spyrytuall dygnytees to whyche he sayth suche worldely honour apperteyne[…]h, are lawefully theyr owne, eche of theym sholde in all laweful ways and such as are by no law prohybyted, helpe & ass[…]ste other to kepe them, though there be for pryuate maters of theyr owne varyaunce & suyt betwene theym. And thys may they with better cōscyēce do eche for other than eche of them for them selfe. For in thys that they do for other, is there not the synne of ambycyon that thys man here speketh of. And this is the parte not onely of spyrytuall men relygyouse and seculare bothe, but of euery good temporall man to / and not onely to do so for them, but euery man also for other. And therfore what reason hadde those same some that so tolde this man, yf there were any some suche in dede, to take thys thynge for any cause of dyuysyon? or why dyd not he so rather tell theym, than putte theyre founde tale in hys boke?

But than one pretie pyece he hath of two partes, by whych he weneth that the spyrytualtye can in no wyse escape but that they muste nedys be betrapped in the tone. For when he hathe sayde that the people saye that spyrytuall men be sometyme neglygent in kepynge or grauntynge charyte, or in spedy doynge of iustyce or in duely mynystrynge some of the seuen sacramentes, or in playne & dylygent instructynge of the people: then with a proper pyece of two partes thus he concludeth the mater.

And yf yt be not so as the people saye: then are the spyrytuall rulers bounden to helpe the people oute of that iugement, or ellys they be not wythout offence theym selfe. And on the tother syde, yf yt be as the people saye […] then are spyrytuall men bounden to reforme yt.

As for thys two handed sworde, some yonge lustye freee wold boldely bete of wyth a two handed staffe, and tell this man agayne, that yf the peple as he putteth for the tone parte sayde in such thynges not trew: than seeth he not nor no man elles neither, what the spyrytnal rulers coulde do to put theym oute of that iudgement, but tell theym, nolite iudicare et non iudicabimini / and so wyll that syde of the sworde do this man lytle seruyce. And then on the tother syde, yf the people in these thynges saye trew as yt is well lykely they do: than trewe yt is that the spyrytull men be bounden to reforme yt. But than is yt as trew agayne, that the thynge beynge but suche as this man reherseth, that ys to wyt neglygence but in some, in doyenge of some parte of theyr dutye, and that also but sometyme, is no cause of dyuysyon to sette the whole temporaltye agaynge theym all, and that syde of the sworde ye frere wold wyth this ende of his staffe bete, harde vnto this mannes own hed.

Now goeth this man farther fo. 27. and sheweth that myne answere to his wordes whyche you reade in the.xix. chapyter of myn Apologye, be very darke, by the reason that I vse therin so often this word (Some saye) whyche is he sayth done after a raylyng fashion. But as you know wel good reders, I haue takē yt word Some say, of his boke, in whyche I redde yt so often / that yt falleth somtyme into my penne ere I be ware.

And as for the raylynge fashyon, yf I durste be bolde to tel so sadde a man a mery tale, I wolde tell hym of the frere, that as he was prechyng in the countrey, spyed a pore wyfe of the paryshe wysperynge wyth her pew felowe / and he fallynge angrye therto, cryed oute vnto her alowd, holde thy bable I byd the, thou wyfe in the rede hode. Whyche when the houswyfe herd: she waxed as angry agayn / and sodaynly she starte vppe and cryed oute vnto the frere agayn, that al the chyrch rang theron: mary syr I beshrew his harte that bableth moste of vs both. For I do but wysper a word with my neighbour here, & thou hast babled there al this houre. And surely good readers saue for lettynge of the word of god in this good mannys sermone: I durste well in the same worde (Some saye) beshrowe hym and beshrowe hym agayne, that moste hathe raysed therwyth of thys good man or me. For reade my wordes there when ye wyll, and you shall fynde that I wyth that worde do but in a maner playe wyth hym. But by saynte Mary he, how well so euer he ment, hys wordes wyth his many (Some sayes) brynge good men in slaunder and obloquye of the people, and peraduenture in parell to, wyth vntrewe surmysed talys of mysse handelynge folke for heresye / and all coloured vnder some sayes to make the lyes seme somewhat lykely. Suche shrewd (Some sayes) lo be no mery sportynge, but be sadde and erneste rude raylynges in dede.

Then he toucheth myne answere made in the sayde chapyter of myne apology, & double confuteth yt, yt I saye that he hath herd some laye men say the contrary. For fyrste he sayth he neuer herd lay man say to hym the cōtrary / but that al ye spyrytual men relygyouse and seculare, holde to gether in the mayntenaūce of the worldly honour, that they cal the honour of god, & of the ryches of spyritual men.

Nowe you wote well I speke in the sayde.xix. chapytre, that of the spirytualtye suche as are fallen from the fayth vnto heresye, hold not at al wyth that honour that I thoughte he there had ment, that is to wyt wyth byeldynge and garnyshynge of chyrches / but be both agaynst that, and tythes, and offeringes, and obytes, and trentalles, aud purgatorye, & masse, and al. And I had wēt in good fayth that of so great a thyng, and so mych spokē of, yt had happed hym to heare some say mē speke, but he sayth nay. Wel we can no farther thā, but stand vnto hys worde, and take an othe of his honesty therin, & yet I wene as honeste as he is, what so euer he be, his own honeste frende / wyll be loth to swere wyth hym therin.

But then sayth he farther, yt though yt were so: that wolde not yet answere hys sayeng. It wolde not to saye the soth in very dede, takynge his worde as I wene he ment yt. But takynge his worde to the worst (as he taketh alwaye myne) and yet but euyn as he wrote yt (but yf yt be prented false) yt is a confutacyon to yt. For yf those spyrytuall persones bothe relygyouse and seculares, that are fallen from the fayth to heresyes holde not wyth the remanaunt: then perdye though they were fewer then they be, yt ys not all trewe that he sayeth, that in the mayntenaunce of suche honoure they holde the gether all. And yet as I haue all redye shewed you, yt wolde not helpe hys parte of a peny, though they dyd euery[…]hone seculares and relygyouse, catholyqnes and heretyques to. And therfore can he not saye but he ys in thys poynte answered, euen to the very full.

Than in the.xxviii. and.xxix. lefe he subtylly fyndeth a faute, that I saye that there are some suche of the spyritualty so fallen vnto heresyes, that yt is pytye that euer they were therof, bycause he sayth we sholde not dyspayre of theym / but they may repent and amende. And also though they do neuer amende: yet I sholde not saye so. For men maye not saye by the deuyll, that yt is pytye that euer he was created, bycause goddes iustyce ys sheweth on hym. We wyl in thys mater kepe no longe scholes. But thys euery man knoweth, that who so vse a commen worde spoken amonge the people, ys rekened so to meane therin, as the commen people meane yt vse yt. And therfore syth the people that so speketh, meaneth not to speke agaynste amendement, but agaynste the present wreched state that the man standeth in at the tyme: that worde may by goddes grace be borne metely well ynough. And as touchynge the deuyll, though men maye not grudge agaynst goddes iuste punyshement: yet peraduenture a man myght saye wythoute parell of dampnacyom, that yt was pytye that he so mysse vsed hym selfe / as in theym that are for theyre heyghnouse offences put vnto paynefull deth, though we saye they were serued as they well deserued, yet we lette not to saye yt was pytye that they guyded theym selfe no better. And saynte Chrysostome pytyeth also the deuyll.

And our sauyoure hym selfe pytyed Hierusalem, and for the pytye wept also thereon, for the punyshement that sholde fall theron / and yet was yt the iuste punyshement of god.

And though the partyes afterwarde maye mende and do good agayne: yet for the tyme tyll they mende, ye and after to, we maye pytye that they were in suche case, as to hurte theym whome they haue all redy remedelesse destroyed, by theyr false doctryne dede in the damnable heresyes that they lerned of theym, and lye therfore beryed in hell. And therfore the thynge that I maye not absolutely pytye: yet in some respectes I may.

Fynally he sayeth that I sholde not call any heretyques desperate wrechys. This is a sore poynte I assure you, to cal a wreche, suche as he sheweth hym selfe to be / to cal hym desperate, whose lyuynge sheweth no maner hope of amendement. Saynte Cypryane I se well was sore ouersene, whyche in the seuenth pystle of hys fyrste booke, for lesse thynges than these are, calleth some folke desperate. And y[…]t was saynt Policarpus farther eu[…]sene, whyche calleth Marcyon the fyrste begotten sonne of the deuyll.

Thys man hathe here as he weneth founde oute proper fantsyes, wherin I hadde leuer leue hym in the lykynge, thanne lese myche tyme in answerynge of suche blonte subtyll tryfles.

But to the mater good readers concernynge the formare wordes of hys dyuysyon, all be yt that I haue here more thanne fully confuted this chapytre of hys, for any defence that he hathe for hys sayde formare wordes, where aboute ys all our mater: reade yet the.xviii. chapyter of myne Apologye, wherin you shall se dyuerse other lyke wordes of his / and applye me myne answere there, to those other wordes of hys whyche he defendeth here / and ye shall se that he shal houe more worke then ynough, to defende theym well, and to make theym serue hym to purpose.