The thyrd chapiter

Thobieccions of ye messēger made agaynst prayeng to sayntys / worshyppyng of ymagys / and goyng in pylgrymagys wyth the answere of the author vnto the same. And incydently is it by ye messenger moued that there shuld seme no necessyte for chrysten folke to resort to eny chyrchys / but yt all were one to pray thens or there. And that opynyon by ye author answered and cōfuted.

AT thys poynt your frend desyryng me that what so euer he shuld say I shuld not rekē it as spoken of hys own opynyon / but that he wold partely shew me what he had hard sum other say therin / to thende that he myght the better answere theym wyth yt he shuld here of me. Thys protestacyō and prefacyon made / he sayd that albe it no good man wolde agre yt it were well done to do […]nto sayntys or theyr ymagꝭ dyspyte or dyshonor / yet to go in pylgrymagꝭ to theym or to pray to theym not only semyd in vayne consyderyng y• all they yf they can eny thing do / can yet do no more for vs among theym all than chryste can hym selfe alone that can do all / nor be not so redy at our hand to here vs if they here vs at all as chryste yt is euery where / nor bere vs halfe the loue and lōgyng to helpe vs that doth our sauyour yt died for vs / whome as saynt Poule sayth we haue for our aduocate afore the father / But ouer thys it semyth to smell of Idolatry whā we go ō pylgrymage to thys place & that place / As though god were not lyke strong or not lyke present in euery place / But as the deuylys were of olde vnder ye false name of goddys present and assystent in the Idollys & māmetys of the paganys / so wolde we make it seme that god and hys saitꝭ stode ī thys place & yt place to thys post & that post cutte out and caruyd in imagys. For whā we rekyn our self to be better herd wyth our lord in kent than at Cambryge / at the north dore of Poules than at the south dore / at one ymage of our Lady than at a nother / is it not an euydēt token and in maner a playne proofe that we put our trust and confydence in the ymage selfe & not in god or our lady? whych is as good ī ye tone place as the tother and the tone ymage no more lyke her than ye to[…]her / nor cause why she shuld fauour the tone bifore the tother. But we blynde peple in stede of god & hys holy sayntys theym selfe cast our affeccyons to the ymagys selfe and therto make our prayers / therto make oure offryngys / & wene these ymagys were ye very sayntys selfe of whom our help & helth shuld grow / puttyng our full trust in thys place & y• place as negromācers put theyr trust in theyr cercles wyth whyche they thynke theym selfe sure agaynst all ye deuyllys ī hell / And wene yf they were one ynch wythout / that than the deuyl wold pull theim in pesys / but as for the cercle he dare not for hys erys onys put ouer hys nose. And men reken that the clergye is gladde to fauour thys ways & to noryshe thys suꝑstycyon vnder ye name & colour of deuocyō to ye ꝑell of ye peples soules for the lucre & tēporall aduauntage yt theym self receyue of ye offrigis. whan I had hard him say what hym lyked I demaunded if he minded euer to be pre[…]e / wherunto he answerede nay verely / for me thynketh q he that therbe preestys to many all redy but if they were better. And therfore whā god shall sēde time I purpose he sayd to marry. well sayd I than syth I am all redy married twise & therfore neuer can be pre[…]st / and ye be so set in mynde of marriage yt ye neuer wyll be preest / we two be not the most metely to pondre what myght be said in thys matter for ye preestys parte. […]ow be it whan I consyder yt / me thynkyth surely that yf the thyng were sych as ye say so far from all frame of ryght relygyon / and so perelous to men soull ys / I can not perceue why that the clergy wold for ye gayn they get thereby / suffer such abusyon to contynew. For fyrst yf yt were trew that no pylgrymage ought to be vsyd / non ymage offred vnto / nor worship done / nor prayour made vnto eny saynt / Than yf none of all these thīgꝭ had euer bene ī vre or now were all vndone / If that were the ryght way / as I wote well it were wrong / than were it to me lytle question but crysten people beyng in the trew fayth and in ye right way to god w[…]rd / wold therby nothīg slake theyr good midꝭ toward the minysters of hys chyrch / but theyr deuocion shuld towarde theym more & more encrese. So yt yf they now get by thys way one peny / theye shulde yf thys be wrong and the tother ryght / not fayle ī stede of one peny now / thā to receyue a grote. And so shulde no lucre gyue theym cause to fauour this way and it be wrong / whyle they coud not fayle to wyn more by ye right. Morouer loke me thorow christēdome & I suppose ye shal fīd ye frute of those offerīgꝭ & right small parte of the lyuyng of the clergy / And such as though sū few placꝭ wold be glad to retayne / yet the hole body might without any notable l[…]sse easily forbere.

Let vs cōsidre oure owne cūtre he[…]e / & we shal fīd of these pilgri[…]ꝭ […] most parte in ye hādꝭ of such relygyous ꝑsones or suche pore ꝑryshis as bere no grete rule ī ye cōuocacōns[…] & besidꝭ thys ye shal not fīd I supopse yt eny bishope ī ēglād hath ye ꝓfite of one grote of eny such offryng wythin hys diocyse. Now standeth then the continuaunce or the brekynge of thys maner and custome specyally in them whych take no profyte therby. whych if they beleuid it to be such as ye call it superstyciouse and wykkyd / wold neuer suffer it contynue to the peryshynge of mennys soules / whereby them selfe shuld distroye their owne soules / and neyther in body nor goodys take any cōmodyte. And ouer thys we see that the bysshopp[…] y[…] and prelatys them seluys visite those holy placys and pylgrimages wyth as large offryngys / and as grete cost in cōmīg and goīge as other people do / so yt they not only take no temporall aduātage therof / but also bestowe of ther owne therin.

And surely I beleue this deuocyō so plantyd by goddes owne hand in the hartꝭ of the hole chyrch / that is to wyt not the clergy[…] only but the hole congregacyon of all crystyn peple / that yf the spyrytualtye were of the mynde to leue it / yet wold not the temporaltye suffer it.

Now yf it so were that pilgrymagꝭ hanged only vppō ye couytyse of euyll prestꝭ / for euyll must they be that wold for couytyse helpe the people forward to idolatrye / than wold not good prestys and good bysshoppys haue vsed thē theyre selues. But I am very su[…]e that many an holy bisshop / & therwith excell[…]ntely well lernyd in scrypture / & the law of god haue had hygh deuocyon therto.

For where as ye say […] that yt smelleth of Idolatrye to vysyt this place & that place / as though god were more myghty or more present in oone place then a nother / or that god or his sayntys hade bounden them selues to stand at thys Image or that Image / and that by mēnes demeanure therby shuld appere that the pylgrymys put theyr trust in ye place or the Image yt selfe takyng that for very god / or for the very saynt of whom they seke for helpe / and so fare lyke necromancers that put theyr trust ī ye cercle / Surely syr holy saynt Austen man epystyll of hys whych he wrote to the clergy and the people takethe pylgrimagys for a more erenest thynge. And sayeth that though the cause be to vs vnknowen why god doth in some place miracles & in sum place none / yet is it no doute but he so dothe. And therin hade that good holy doctor so grete confydence that as he […]ayeth him self / he sēt twoo of hys prestys in pylgrymage for the tryall of the trouth of a grete matter in contencyon and debate betwene them out of Hyppona in affryke vnto saynt Stephens chyrche in myllayn / where many myracles werre wont to be shewed / to thend that god myght there by sum meanes / cause the truth to be declared and made open by hys power / whych by noo meane knowen to man he could well fynde out /

Nor they yt goone on pylgrymage do nothynge lyke to those necromancers to whom ye resemble them that put theyre confydence in the rundell & cercle on ye groūd / for a specyall beloue that they haue in the c[…]pa[…]e of that ground by reason of folyshe […] and fygure[…] about it withe inuocacyons of euyll spyrytys and famylyaryt[…] with deuy[…]i[…] beyng enmys to god / & the crafte & ways of all that warke by god hym selfe prohibyted and forbodē and that vppon the payn of deth / what lyknes hath y• vnto the goyng of good men vnto holy placys not by enchaūtmēte dedicat to ye deuyl / but by goddꝭ holy ordynaunce wyth his holy wordꝭ consecratyd vnto hym self. which two thingys yf ye wold resemble to gyther so myght ye blaspheme and haue ī dyrision all the deuout rytꝭ & cerymonys of the chyrch / both in the deuine seruice as encensyng / haloyng of the fyre / of ye funt / of the pascall lambe / and ouer y• the exorcysmys / benedyccyons / and holy straunge gesturys vsid in consecracyon or mynystracyon of the blesyd sacramētys / all whych holy thyngys gret parte wherof was frome hand to hand left in the chyrch from the tyme of cristys apostles and by them left vnto vs as yt was by god taught vnto them / men myght now folyly myslyken vnto ye superstycyous demeanure & fond fassyon of iuglery. Nor the flok of cryst ys not so folyshe as those heretyques bere them ī hand / that where as there ys no dogg so mad but he knoweth a very cony from a cony carued & paynted / crysten peple that haue reason in theyre heddꝭ & therto the light of fayth in theyr soulys shuld wene that thimagys of our lady were our lady her self. Nay they be not I trust so madde but they do reuerence to thymage for ye honour of the person whom yt representyth / as eury mā delytyth ī thymage & remembraūs of hys frend. And al[…]e yt that euery good crysten man hath a remembryng of crystys passyon in hys mīd & cō […]yuith by deuout meditaciō a forme & fassyō therof in hys hart / yet is the[…]e no mā I […] so good nor so well ler[…]ed nor ī meditacyō so well accustomyd /but that he fyndyth hym selfe more mouid to pite and compassion vppon the beholdynge of the holy crucifyxe than whan he lakkith it / And yf ther be any that for the maītenaūce of hys opynyon wyll perauenture saye that he fyndeth it otherwyse in hym self / he shuld giue me cause to fere that he hath of crystys passyon neyther the tone way nor the tother but a very faīt felynge / syth that the holy fathers before vs dyd / and all deuoute people aboute vs do fynde and fele in thē selfe the contrary

Nowe for the reason that you alege quod I / where ye saye that in resorting to thys place and that place / this image and that image / we seme to reken as though god were not ī euery place like myghty or not lyke presēt / thys reasō procedeth no more against pilgrymagys thā agaīst all the chyrchys ī crysten dōe. For god is as mighty ī the stable as in ye tēple. And as he is not cōphēsible nor circūscrybed no where / so is he present euery where / But thys letteth not heuen / be it a corporall thynge or not / to be the place of a speciall manere and kynde of hys presence / in whych hyt lykyth hym to shewe hys glorious magestye to hys blessyd heuenly cōpany which he sheweth not vnto dampned wretches in hell / and yet ys he neuer thense. So li[…]id it his goodnes to go wyth hys chosen people thorough the deserte ī the cloude by day and the pyler of fyre by nyght / yet was he not bounden as ye resemble it lyke the dā ned spyrytys to the olde Idolys of the panyms /

It likid him also to chese the arche yt was caryed wyth hys people / at which arche specially by miracle he diuers tymes declared hys especyall assystence the arche beyng traunslatyd fro place to place. was it not also his pleasure to be specyally present in hys temple of Ierusalē tyll he suffred it to be distroyed for theyr synne. And in stede of that oone place of prayer to which he wold byfore that all hys people shuld come he hath vouchsaffyd to sprede hym self abrode in to many tēples / and ī more acceptable wyse to be worshypped in many templys thorow oute hys cristyn flokke /

Here sayde your fr[…]nd that the temple of cryste is as saynt poule sayeth mā nis harte / and that god is not included nor shytte in any place / And so hī selfe sayd to the woman of Samarie / that very worshyppers shulde worshyp in spyryte / and in truthe / not ī the hyll or in hyerusal[…]m or any other temple of stone /

whervnto I shewed hī that I wold well agre / that no t[…]mple of stone was vnto god so plesaunt as the temple of mannys harte / But yet that nothyng letteth or wythstandyth but that god wyll that hys crystē people haue ī sundry placys sundry tēples and chyrchis to whych they shulde besyde theyr pryuat prayours assemble solemply / and resorte in company to worshyp him to gether such as dwell so nere to gether that they may conueniently resorte to one place.

For albe it oure sauyour sayed quod I vnto the woman of whom ye spake that the tyme shulde come ī which they shulde neyther worshyp god ī that hill of Gezara not in hyerusalem neyther / whych places were after dystroied and desolate / and the Pagane manere of worshyppīg of ye tone / & ye Iues maner of worshippīg in ye tother turnyd both in to the maner of worshypīg of cristē Fayth and religyon / yet said he not to her yt they shulde neuer after worship god ī none other temple / But he said that the time shuld come / and thā was comen all redy whan the very trewe worshyppers shulde worshyp god in spyryt and truth / And that as god is a spyrytuall substaunce / so lokyd he for worshypers that shuld ī such wyse worshyp hym. In whych wordys our sauyour reprouyd all false worship as was vsyd after paganysme ī that hyll in Samaria / and all suche worshyp as was done ī any place wyth opyniō that god myght not be worshyppyd els where. Those yt so byleue they be such as bynde god to a place / whych oure Lorde reprouyth / shewyng that god may in hart truly and spyrytually be worshipid euery where. But this excludyth not that besidis that he wil be worshyppyd in hys holy temple / no more thā whan he gaue coūcell that for auoydyng of vaynglorye a man shall not stand and praye in the strete to gather worldely prayse / but rather secretly pray in hys chamber / Thys counsell forbadde not the Iewes to whom he gaue it that they shuld neuer after cum in to the temple / and pray.

And suerly albeit that sū good mā here and there one among.x. thousād as saynt Poule and seynt Antony / & a fewe such other lyke / do lyue all heuenly far out of all fleshly cumpany / as far from all occasyō of worldly wrechednes / as from the comen temple or parysh chyrch / yet if chyrches & cōgregacyōs of crystyn peple resortīg to gether to goddꝭ seruyce were onis aboleshed and put away / we were lyke to haue few good tēples of god ī mēnys soules / but all wolde wythin a whyle weare away clene and clerely fall to nought. And thys preue we by exper[…] ence / that those which be the best tēples of god in their soules / they most vse to cum to the temple of stone / And those that lest cum there be well knowen for very rebaudys and vnthryftys / and opēly perseyuyd for temples of the deuyll / And thys not in our dayes only / but so hath been from Crystys dayes hether / I trowe no man doutyth but that Crystys appostyls were holy tēples of god in theyr soules / And well vnderstode ye wordis of theyr master spokyn to the woman of Samary / as the thyng whych theyre mayster after told them hym selfe / or elles how colde sum of them haue wrytyn that cōmunycacyon whyche none of them hard as apperyth by the gospell. But they not in theyr maysters days ōly / but also after his resurrexyō and after that they had reseyuyd the holy gost / and were by hī instructyd of euery truth longyng to ye necessyte of theyr saluacyō / were not content only to pray secretly by them self in theyer chambers / but also resortyd to ye tēple to make theyre prayers / And ī y• place as a place plesāt to god dyd they pray in spyryte and in truth / As well apperyth in the boke of saynt Luke wryttyn of the Actys of Crystes holy Apostellys / So that no doute ys there / but that yet vnto thys day and so forth to the worldys ende / it is and shalbe plesaūte vnto god / that hys chosen people pray to hym and call vppō hym in temple and chyrch. whereof hī selfe wytnessyth wyth the Prophete / Domus mea domus orationis vocabitur. My house shalbe called ā house of prayer. Now makith your reason as I sayed no more agaynst pylgrymagꝭ than agaynst euery chirch. For as god is not bounden to the place / nor oure confydence bounden to the place but vnto god though we rekē our prayour more plesaunt to god in the chyrch thā wythout / by cause hys hygh goodnes accepteth it so / in lyke wyse do not we reken our lorde bounden to ye place or image where ye pylgrymage is though we worshyp god ther bycause hym self lykyth so to haue it.