The.xxvi. chapyter

The messenger sayenge that hym semed he shulde not byleue ye chyrch if he saw the chyrche saye one thyng and holy scrypture a nother thynge because the scrypture is the word of god / the author she wyth yt the fayth of the chyrch ys the word of god as well as the scrypture / ād therfore as well to be beleuyd. And yt the fayth & the scrypture well vnde[…]stāden be neuer cōtrary. And farther she with yt vppon all doutys rysynge vppon holy scrypture concernynge any necessary artycle of the faythe / he that cannot vppon all that he cā here in the mater ō both the sydys parceyue ye beter & trewer parte / hath a sure & vndoutable refuge ꝓuydyd him by the goodnes of god to brynge hym out of all ꝑplexyte / in that god hath cōmaundyd hym in all such doutys to beleue hys chyrch.

TRuly syr q he me thynketh it is well sayed that ye haue sayed. And in good faythe to say the truth I se not what I shuld answere yt wythall. And yet whan I loke bak agayne vppō holy scrypture / and consyder that yt ys goddys owne wordys whyche I wote well ye wyll graunte / I fynde it harde ī myne har[…] to beleue all the mē yn the hole world / yf they wolde say eny thyng wherof I shuld se that the hol[…] scrypture sayth ye contrary / sythe yt ys reason that I beleue god alone far better than thē all. In that quod I ye say very trouthe. But nowe I putt case that god wolde tell you.ii. thyngys whether of theym wolde ye beleue best. Nether nother q he / but I wolde byleue theym bothe firmly & both a like. what if neyther nother quod I were lykely to be trew but semede bothe twayne impossyble. That shold quod he make litle force to me. For that onis knowen that god telleth theym / semed they neuer so far vnlikly nor neuer so far impossible / I neyther shuld nor could haue eny dout but that they were both twayne trew. That ys well sayde q I. But now and yt so were that those.ii. thyngis semed the tone to the tother clene cōtrary / what wolde ye than thynk & which wolde ye thā byleue? yet could I not quod he dout eny thyng but that they were very trew bothe / but I wolde veryly thynke that I dyd not well vnder stande the tone of theym. what wold ye than do quod I if he bad you bileue theym bothe. Mary q he than wold I praye hym tell me furste how he vnderstandeth theym bothe. For though I bileue that they be both trew in that sense and purpose that he takythe hys owne wordes / and may in that maner vnderstanden / well stande and agree to gether / yet can I not byleue theym both in that sense and vnderstandyng wherin they repugne and be directely cōtrary eche to other. That is quod I so well sayd yt in my mynde no man cā amend yt. But now wold I wytt quod I whyther that the faythe of the chyrche be the worde of god / & by god spoken to the chyrche or not. yes q he god speketh to hys chyrche in ye scripture. And ys nothyng goddes wordꝭ. q I but scrypture? The wordys yt god spake to Moyses were theye not goddys wordys all tyll they were wryttē? And the wordys of Chryste to hys aposteles were they not hys wordys till they were wryttē? yes than quod he. But now sythe he hathe perfyted and finished the corpus of holy scrypture / all thynge that he wold chrystē people shulde byleue / and all that he wold the chyrche wold do / and all that he wold the churche shuld eschew / all thys hath he lefte theym hys mynde suffycyently in holy scrypture. And none other wyse quod I bysyde? I had wentt we had bene at a nother poynt / in that ye se ye sabbat day chaunged in to sōday wythoute eny worde of scrypture / geuyng eny cōmaūdement of ye chaunge in the new testement / from the cōmaū demente geuyn for the saterday in the olde. And also for the poynte that we spake of / towchinge the perpetuall virginite of our lady wherof ys no worde wrytten in scrypture. But syth I perceyue that the grete affeccyō and reuerence that ye bere to the scrypture of god / not wythout greate cause but wt out eny mesure / makethe you in the case that ye take all authoryte and credence from euery word of god spoken besyde the scrypture / I wolde ask yow therfore thys questyon. If god yn holy scrypture tell you.ii. thyngꝭ that seme the tone contrary to the to[…]here / as for ensample yf he tell yow in one place y• he ys lesse than hys father / and in a no there place that he and his father be all one / whych of these wyll you beleue?

Mary quod he both twayn. for they may stande to gether well inough. For he was lesse as man / & was all one & egall as god. Uery trouth yt ys quod I that ye say. But now yf ye had bene born in ye days of Arrius the heretyke / he wolde not haue receyuyd nor holde hym self contente wyth thys answere / but he wold haue agreed you the furst parte and put you ferther to proue the secunde parte. And vnto that t[…]te he wolde haue made you a glose that hys father & he were one not in substaunce but in wyll. And that glose he wolde haue fortyfyed & made sūwhat semely wyth a nother word of Chryste ī which he prayed hys father sayyng / as thou & and I be bothe one so make thou that they & we may be made one / menīg by hys chrysten peole whyche shall neuer be one wyth hym in substance. So yt for the inequalitie of Chryst by reason of hys māhed / ye must agre wyth him. But for vnyte of godhed / he wyll not agree wythe hym but putt you alway to proue it. well quod he and thoghe he so dyd yet yf I were prouydid there fore / therbe textis ynowe that playnly proue yt. That is quod I very truth But yet ys there none but he shall alway set you a nother agaynste yt / and a glose as faste for yours as ye shall haue an answere for hys / in such wyse as he may abuse a right wyse and well lernyd man as he dyd ī hys owne days & many dayes after many a thousād. Than yf yt so were that in that dyspycyons ye coude not make youre audyence to dyscerne the truthe / nor peraduenture persuade theym to byleue the truthe / bycause the false parte myghte happe to haue to the myndys of many a more face of trewth / as it had at that tyme to manye that than were of that secte / what way wold ye wynde oute? Mary quod he I wolde byleue well my selfe the trewthe & go to god / and lett theym that wolde byleue the false parte go to the deuyll / ye shulde q I haue takyn therin a good sure way. But now yf ye had bene in that tyme (albe yt ye be now faste and sure in the trewthe) ye myght haue happed whyle the matter was in questyone / & many greate clarkys & well scryptured men / and some semyng ryght holy / sett on the wronge syde / ye myghte haue happed I say so to haue bene moued wi[…]h the reasons on bothe the sides / that ye shulde not haue wyste on whych parte to determyne your byleue. And what wolde ye than haue done? Quod he ye put me now to a pynch / and I shall ans[…]ere you as I haue harde say that doctor Mayo sumtyme almoigner to kyng henry y• seuynth answered onys the kynge at hys table. It happed that ther was fallen in cōmunicaciō y• story of Ioseph how his masters Putiphers wyfe a greate mā wt y• kyng of Egipt / wold haue pullid hym to bed / & he fled away. Now master Mayo (q ye kingꝭ grace) ye be a tall stronge man on the tone syde / and a cunnynge doctor on ye tother syde / what wold ye haue done yf ye had bene not Iosephe but in Iosephes stede? By my trouthe syr q he and yt lyke your grace / I can not tell you what I wold haue don but I can tell you well what I shulde haue don.

By my trouthe quod the kynge that was very well answerid. And sith that answere serued hym well there / I shall make ye same serue me here. For surely if I had bene in Arrius days ī ye poynt that ye speke of / what I wold haue dō that wot I nere. But what I shulde haue done that can I well tel you and surely trust I wolde haue done so too. what ys yt quod I. Mary I wolde haue byleued the beste quod he. The best quod I? that were beste in dede yf ye wyst whych yt were. But the case ys put / that the reasons grounded vppon scrypture semyd vnto you in such wise eche to impugne and answere other / yt ye stode in such a dout / that ye coud in no wy[…]e dyscerne whythere syde sayde best. By god quod he I had forgotē that. well than were it beste quod he / and so wolde I haue done I thynke / knele me downe and make my speciall prayour to god yt yt myght please hys goodnes ī so great a parell not to leue me ꝑplexed / but vouchesafe to enclyne myne assent vnto that syde yt he knew were trew / and wolde I shulde byleue to be trew. And then wold I boldly byleue the tone whyche god shulde haue put in my mynde. Had not thys bene ye best way? If yt were not quod I the best / yt myght paraduenture serue for a seconde. A secunde quod he thā ye take yt for noughte. Nay quod I / ther be two secondys after two maner countyngys. One nexte vnto y• worst / a nother nexte vnto ye beste. And your way ys surely far fro y• worste. But yet dare I not assent that yt were the beste tyll I vnderstand yt better. And therfore I pray you tell me thys. If after your speciall prayours made / ye wrote the tone parte in one paper and the tother parte ī a nother and layed theym both on the grounde / and then sett vp ā staffe bytwene theym both / wolde ye be then indefferent to take y• tone side or y• tother after / as yt shulde hap your staffe to fall? why not quod he. Or ellys put yt vppon two lottys / and than at auenture drawe the tone & take yt. For whē I haue done as mych as mine owne wyt wyll serue / and haue harde therto all that I can of other mē / and yet by neyther can perceyue the better opiniō / what shuld I do or what could I do ferther thā pray for grace to gide my choyce / and so at auenture bol[…]dly take ye tone and holde it fast / dowtyng nothynge but god assysted my choyce / yf I haue a ferm fayth in hys promyse by whyche he promyseth that yf we as[…] we shall haue askyng as saynt Iamys sayeth wythout any dowte. And why shulde not I in suche perplexed case after help callid for of god / take the tone parte at aduenture by lot as dyd thappostels in the chesyng of a new / to fulfyll y• place of y• tratour Iudas? Lottys quod I be well lawfull ī the choyse of such two thyngꝭ as be both so good yt we be lykly to chose well inough why there so euer we take. But now yf ye were in the case that I haue harde my father meryly say euery man ys at the choyse of hys wyfe / that ye shulde put your hande in to a blynde bagg full of snakys & elys to gether.vii. snakis for ōe ele / ye wold I wene rekē it a ꝑilous choyse to take vppe one at aduenture though ye had made your speciall prayour to spede well. Nor ye ought not in suche case to aduenture it vppon your prayour and trust of god wythout necessytye. That ys ꝑaduēture trouth quod he. But in our case there ys necessytye. For there were none othere way to auoyde the ꝑplexitie / but euyn take the tone by prayour and ferm truste in god / whyche neuer deceyued theym yt truste in hym. If there were quod I none other way sumwhat were it than yt ye say. But now consyder your case agayne. And whan yt so were that ye coulde not vppon that ye hard the Arryanys and the catholyke parte argue to gether / parceyue whyther part were the better / and therfore of those two talys tolde you by god in many textis of holy scrypture / some semynge playnely to say that Cryste was not egall wyth hys father / some semynge as playnely to say the contrary / ye coud in no wise fynde ony reason / whereby ye coulde finde your self moued to take the tone parte for more probable than y• tother. I put case than that god wold hym self saye to you I haue shewed the trouthe of this mater to suche a man / and how my scrypture ys to be vnderstandē cō cernyng the same. Go thy wayes therfore to hym. And that thyng yt he shall tell the that thyng byleue thou. wolde ye saye nay good lorde I wyll aske no man but thy self / and therefore tell me thyne owne mouth / or els I wyll take the tone parte at all aduentures / and thynke that thou wolde haue yt so / or ellys wold ye thynke yt god were your good lorde & had done myche for you in that it lykyde hym so graciously for your surete to brynge you oute of such a great perplexitye / wherby ye shulde for your owne mynde haue remayned in an insoluble dowte ī a mater of the fayth / whereī it ys damnable to dwell in dowte or (whyche y[…]t myche worse were) haue declyned peraduenture in to an inuyncyble errour? Ueryly q he greate cause shuld I haue had lightly to thanke god. ye wolde not than quod I fyrste make your prayour and than wyth good hope that grace shall guyde your fortune take y• tone parte at auēture by lot / but ye wold in your prayour thank god for that prouysiō. And thē wold ye get you to that man as faste as ye coulde. Uery trouthe quod he. Than yf yt man shulde tell you that Arryus and his cūpany were herytyques all and toke textis of scripture wronge ye wold bileue hym? ye veryly quod he yt wold I. I put case quod I that ye had not dowted byfore b[…]t had bene ī your self at clere poynte yt y• Arryans opynyō were the trouth / […]et ye wolde agaynste Arrius and all hys / and agaynst your own mynd also lene vnto hys worde / whome god had beden you bylefe. what els quod he? what yf ye asked hym q I whythere god haue suffycyently shewed yt poynt in scrypture / so that yt may by the wordys of holy wrytt well and euydentlye be proued / and yt he tolde you ye / And that theruppon he wolde brynge in all the textys that ye had well in remembraunce all redy / & yt ye layed agaynste theym all that you coulde lay for the cō trary / so ferforth that whā eche of you had layed all your textys and all your glosys that eyther of you bothe could brynge forthe tyll ye bothe confessyd yt neyther of ye bothe coulde eny ferther thyng fynde therin / he sayenge styll yt hys way were the truthe and yt he had by sc[…]ypture well proued yt vnto you / and your selfe on the tother side for all that euer ye had hard hym say / parceyuyng in your owne mynde none other but that ye had by scrypture better prouyd the tother ꝑte / which wold ye now bileue / that way that as far[…]e as ye see god sayth him self in holy scrypture / or els that man whom god sente you to & bade you beleue? Nay verely q he I wolde byleue hym. well sayde quod I. But whether wold ye onely beleeue him that the trowth of the mater were agaynst the Arryans / or els wold you beleue hym ferther in yt he sayd he had so prouyd yt vnto you by scrypture. I wold q he beleue hym therin also. For syth god so had cōmaunded me / & had shewed me that he had him selfe instructyd that mā in what sence y• scrypture were to be vnderstanden / I coud none otherwyse thynke / but that were trew / and thowgh it apperyd to myne own reason the contrary. Uery well sayd q I. Now if god had sayed vnto you that ye shulde byleue that man cō cerning the matter selfe / & of scrypture had nothyng spokē / than wold ye haue byleuyd hym yet in the mater? wold ye not all though he shuld haue tolde you that he vnderstode no scripture at all? That ys trew quod he. Now yf he sholde then haue tolde you that the Arryanys were herytyques in yt poynte and theyre opynion erroniouse & false / ye wolde haue byleuede hym? what els q he. what if he had told you ther wyth quod I that he wyste nere whyther yt myght be well proued by scrypture or not? yet wolde I quod he neuerthelesse byleue to be trewe the mater selfe that he had tolde me. what wolde you than think quod I of those textys that ye reken byfore well & plaī ly to proue the contrary? I wolde q he than reken that they were mente sū other wayes thā I could vnderstand. For I could not doute but beīg trewly vnderstanden / theye coulde neuer wytnes agaynste y• trouh. In good faith quod I ye say maruelously well. Doo ye nott quod I take yt for all one whyther god byd you do a thynge hys owne mouthe or byd you by holy scrypture? yes quod he sauīg / that I take the byddinge by scrypture for the more sure. For there wot I wel god speketh & I can not be illuded. Now quod I thys man that god byddeth you go to & in all thyng byleue hym wyll it make […]ny chaunge in our mater whyther yt be man or woman? No chaunge at all quod he. what yf yt were a certeyn knowen cumpany of men and women to gether quod I wold that make eny dyfference. Neuer a whyt quod he. Than quod I in case yt apere vnto you as I suppose it doth to you and to euery christen man els / yt in all poyntꝭ of fayth both in thyngys to be byleued aboue nature / and in thyngꝭ also that ar of nece[…]itie to be knowē & byleuyd / whych may be perceyued by reason geuyn vs wyth nature / god geueth vs in cōmaūdement that we shall byleue his chyrch / than are ye full answered. For than haue ye the man that ye muste nedys resorte vnto for your fynall āswer and solusyon of all poyntys and dowtys / in eny wyse concernynge the saluacyon of your soule. of whyche poyntys no man can denye / but one of the most especiall poynte is to take in holy scripture alway the ryght sense. Or ellys yf we cannot attayne the ryght vnderstā dynge / yet than at the leste wyse to be sure that we shall auoyde and eschewe all such misse takyng as myght brynge vs in to eny damnable errour.