The.xxviii. chapyter

The messenger eft sonys obiected agaynst thys / that we shulde byleue y• chyrch ī any thyng where we fynd ye wordes of scrypture semīg playnely to say the contrary / or byleue y• olde doctours interpretacyons in any necessary artycle / where they seme to vs to say cōtrary to ye texte. shewīg yt we may ꝑceyue y• scripture aswel as they might. & ye answer of ye author ꝓuīg ye authorite of ye old interpters & ye infallible authorite of ye chirch ī y• god techith it euery truthe requysite to ye necessite of mānys saluacyō. which he ꝓueth by a deducey ō ꝑtely depēdīg vppō naturall resō.

IT semeth me quod he that all thys goth well that we shulde byleue the chyrch as chryst / as longe as they say as Cryst sayth / for some thynkethe ment our lorde. But now yf they tel me talis of theyr owne wherof Cryst neuer spake worde nor mencyō made therof in holy scrypture I may thā say wt ye ꝓphet Hieremie / nō mittebā prophetas et ipsi currebant. Non loquebar ad eds et ipsi prophetabant / those prophetis (quod our lord) ranne forthe of theyre owne hed and I sent theym not / And ꝓphecyed of theyr owne heddes whā I spake nothyng to theym. And than how myche may I more say so / yf they say me a thynge wherof Cryste or holy scrypture sayth the contrary / shall I byleue the chyrch aboue chyrste? were that a good humylyte to be obedyent more to menne than to god? More ought I me thynketh to byleue god aboue spekynge in hys holy scrypture hym selfe / than all the olde fathers yf they make a glose agaynste the texte. Nor they doo nott theym selfe for theyre opynyons say & wryte / that they haue theym by inspyracyon / or by reuelacyon / or by myracle. But by wysedome / studye / dylygence / and collacyō of one texte wyth a nother. By all whych meanys men may now perceyue the sentēce of scrypture as well as they myght than. And yf ye wyll peraduenture say that grace holpe the[…]m whych I wyll well agree / than wyll I say agayne that goddys grace is not so farre worn oute yet / but y• yt may as well helpe vs as yt holpe theym / and so may we be for the ryght vnderstandynge of scrypture equall wyth theym / and peraduenture one ace aboue theym. wherby whan we ꝓceyue that they went wrong and other after theym / shall we than call yt humylyte so to captyue & subdue our vnderstandynge / wherby god hath happely geuen vs lyght to perceyue theyr errours / yt without thank geuyn him therfore we shall so sett hys gyfte at nought / that we shall byleue theym byfore hym selfe / & tell hym yt hym self bad so[…] […] therfore me thīke where y• old doctours or the holy chyrche telleth me the tale that god doth / ther he byddeth me byleue theym. But where god sayeth one thynge in scrypture and they tell me a nother / yt thynkith me that I shuld in no wyse byleue theym. well quod I than in sūwhat ye saye ye will bileue the chirch but not in all. In eny thynge bysyde scrypture ye wyll not / nor in the interpretacion of scrypture ye wyll not. And so where ye sayed yt ye byleue ye chyrch in sūwhat / in very dede ye beleue ye church ī right nought. For wherein wyll ye byleue yt yf ye byleue it not in the interpretaciō of scripture? For as touchynge the texte ye byleue the scrypture self and not ye chirch Me thynketh q he the text ys good ynough and playne ynough nedynge no glose yf yt be well consydered & euery parte compared with other. Hard yt were quod I to fynde eny thynge so playne that yt shulde nede no glose at all. In faythe quod he theye make a glo[…]e to sū textys / yt be as playne as yt is y• twise two make four. why quod I nedeth yt no glose at all? I trow so quod he. Or els the deuyll ys ō yt / I wysse quod I / and yet though ye wole bileue one yt wold tell you yt twise two gāders made alway foure gese / yet ye wolde be aduysed ere ye byleued hym that wolde tell you yt twyse two geese made alway foure ganders. For therī might ye be deceyued. And him wold ye not byleue at all that wolde tell you that twise two gese wold alway make foure horse. Tut quod he thys ys a mery mater. They must be all yt twyse twayne alway of one kynde. But gese and horse be of dyuerse. well quod I than euery man that ys neythere gose nor horsese[…]th well yt there is one glose yet. But nowe quod I the geese and ye ganders be both of one kynde and yet twyse two gese make not alway foure ganders. A swete mater quod he / ye wote what I meane well ynough. I thynke I do quod I[…] but I thinke if ye bryng yt furth yt wyll make a nothere glose to your texte as playne as youre texte ys / and ye wyll in all holy scrypture haue no glose at all. And yet wyll ye haue colla[…]yon made of one texte wt a nother / and shew how they may be agreed to gether as thogh all that were no glose. ye quod he but wold you yt we shulde byleue the chyrch yf yt se[…]t a glose that wyll in no wyse agree wyth ye text / but that it aperyth playnly that the texte well consydered sayeth clene the contrary? To whō dothe yt apere quod I so playnly / whā yt aperyth one to you / and to the hole chirch a nother? yet yf I se yt so quod he / though holy doctours & all the hole chyrch wolde tell me the contrarye / me thynkythe I were no more bounden to bileue them all yt the scrypture menith as they take yt / than if they wolde all tell me that a thynge were whyte whych I se my self ys blak. Of late quod I ye wolde byleue ye chirch in sum thynge. And now not onely ye wold byleue it in nothīg / but also where as god wold the church shulde be your iudge / ye wold now be iudge ouer the chirche. And ye wyll by your wyt be iudge whyther the chyrch in the vnderstādynge of holy scripture yt god hath wryten to hys chyrche / do iuge a right or erre. As for your white & blak / neuer shall it be yt ye shall se the thīg blak yt all other shal se white. But ye may be sure yt yf all other se it white & ye take it for blak / your eyene be sore deceyuyd. For ye chirch wyll not I thīk agree to call it other than yt semyth to thē. And mych maruayle were yt y[…] ye shuld ī holy scripture se beter thā ye old holy doctors and Crystys hole chyrch. But furste quod I ye must consyder that ye and I do not talke of one doctour or twayne / but of the consent and comen agrement of ye old holy fathers. Nor that we speke not of the doctryne of one man or two in the chyrch / but of of the comen consent of the chyrche. we speke nott also of any sentēce taken in eny text of holy scrypture / wherby rysyth no dout or question of eny necessary artycle of oure fayth or rule of oure lyuynge / For in other bye maters may there be taken of one text.x. sensys paraduenture and all good ynough wythout warātyse of the best / But we speke of suche two dyuers and contrary sensys taken / as yf the tone be trew the tother must nedys be false / and that as I say concerning some necessary poynte of oure faythe or rule of oure lyuynge / whych is also dependyng vppon fayth and reducyble therto. As yf one wolde boldely breke his vow for yt he thought that no man were boūdē to kepe any. Sych poyntys I saye lett vs consyder they be that wee speke of. And thys remembryd betwene vs / than wyll we sū what se what your sayng doth proue. I shall not myche nede quod I to styk wyth you in dysputīg by what meanis the scrypture ys vnderstanden / syth ye be agreed wyth nature and dylygence the grace of god must nedys go / or els no dylygence or help of nature can preuayle. Nor I wyll nothyng deny you / but that god may and wyll also / gyue hys grace now to vs as he gaue of old to hys holy doctors / if there be as mich towardnes and no more let or impedymente in our selfe than was in them. I wyll also graūt yow that we may now by ye same menis by whych they might than / vnderstand the scripture as well as they dyd than / and I wyll not mic[…] styk wyth you for one a[…]e better. And were it not for the synnys that we sink in / we myghte parcase vnderstande yt beter by quater tredeuce / hauīg theyr labours therin & oure owne therwyth. But syth I am so gentyll to graūt you so many thyngꝭ / I trust ye wyll graūt me thys one / that yf any such poynt of our fayth as god wolde haue mē bounden to beleue / they dyd vnderstande ye scripture one way and we a nother / beyng the tone to the tother so clene contrary yt yf the tone were trewe ye tother must nedꝭ be false / ye will thā graunt[…] I say yt either they erre or we. That muste nedys be quod he. ye wyll also graunt quod I that in such poyntis as we speke of / the erroure were dampnable. For we speke of those poyntys onely / to the beleefe wherof god wyll haue vs bounden. I graunt quod he. For dampnable were yt in suche case to beleue wrong. And wrong shuld they or we beleue if they or we beleued a wrōg artycle / because they or we thoughte yt the scrypture affyrmyd yt. And as dāpnable were yt and yet mich more / if we beleuyd a thyng wherof we beleuyd yt the scrypture affyrmyth ye cōtrary. For thē beleuyd we that the scrypture were false. Thys is q I very well sayde. […]But for the more playnnes let vs put one exāple or twayn. And what poynt rather than the ar[…]ycle towchynge the equalite ī godhed of our sauiour cryste wt hys […]ather? For yf the cōtrary belef[…] were trew / than were this alway damnable & playne idolatry. Uery trothe quod he. May not quod I the tothe[…] example be the matter that we haue in hand / cōcernīg sayntꝭ reliques / imagꝭ & pylgrymagꝭ. whych thyngys yf yt be (as ye say many reken yt) ydolatrye / thā ys yt yet worse to do therin as we do / than yf our byleefe were wrong in the tothere poynte. And that as myche worse / as the sayntys or the ymagys eyther / be worse than ye holy manhode of Christe. That ys q he very trew. Thā q I let the furst point alone because therein wee be all agreed / & speke of the second yf tholde fathers toke the scryptures one way & we the contrary. Though yt myghte be yt we were able to vnderstād the scryptures as well as they / yet yf they so vnderstode theim yt thei thoght this kīd of worship not for beden but cōmaūdid & plesaūt to god / & we new men ō the tother syde thoght yt vtterly forbeden & holden for ydolatry / the tone ꝑte did not in dede vnderstand the scrypture ryght / but were in a dampnable erroure. That wyll no mā deny q he. I doute not now q I but yt your self seeth very well how many thīgys I might here lay for them to proue you yt they erryd nott so. Furste theyr wyttys as mych as our new mē nys / theyr […]ylygēce as grete / theyr erudycyon […] theyr study as faruent / theyr deuocion hoter / theyr nōber farr greter / theyr tyme cōtynued lenger by many agys parseueryng / the contrary oppynyōs in few & those alway sone fadyd / they taken alway for catholyke / ye cōtrary ꝑte for heretykys. Here myght I lay you the holynes of theyre lyfe & ye plentye of theyr grace well apperynge therby. And yt our lorde therfore openyd theyr eyen & suffred & causyd them to se ye trothe. And albeyt he vsed therī none open myracle nor sensyble reuelacyō / wherof as ye say they none allege or pretēd for the profe of theyr opyniōs in theyr interpretacyons of holy scrypture / yet vsyd he the secret suꝑnaturall meane / by whych his grace assystent wt good mē y• labour therfore / by mociōs insensyble to them self / inclynyth theyr assent vnto the trewe syde / & that thus the old holy fathers dyd in the poynt yt we speke of & in such other / parceyue ye ryght sēce of holy scrypture so farforth at the lest wyse / as they well knew yt yt was not cōtrary to theyr beleefe. And here myghte I lay you also yt yf yt had bene otherwyse & yt they had therin dā nably bene deceyuid / than liuyng & dyēg in dampnable errour they coud not haue beene sayntys / as god god hathe shewyd thē to be by many a thousand miracle both ī theyr lyuys & after theyr dethys. wyth thys might I also lay & very well cōclude / that syth those holy doctors and the chyrch / be (as by theyr bookys playnely apperethe) all of one fayth in thys poynt & such other / yt ther by well apperyth yt the chyrche is in the treuth / & ys not in the vnderstandyng of ye scrypture yt spekyth of ye mater eny thing deceyuyd / but they clerely deceyuyd yt do vnderstand those textꝭ of holy scrypture to the contrary. These thī […]gys as I saye and yett many other mo myght I lay. But syth ye dyd your self put the chyrch & them both in one case / & so they be in dede / I wyll rather ꝓue you the treuth of them by the treuth of the chyrch / than ye treuth of ye chyrch by the treuthe of thē. & so semyth me good reason. For surely syth they were but mēbers of hys chyrch / god had hys specyall cure vppon them moste especyall for the profyte of his churche / by whose hole corps he more settyth than by eny member therof / saynt / apostle / euangelyst / or other. And therfore must I yet ask you agayn whether the chyrch may haue eny dampnable errour in ye fayth by mystakīg of scripture or otherwise. That ys q he sumwhat hard to tell. Now quod I sumwhat I meruayle that ye remember not yt your self hath agred all redy / yt these wordꝭ of Christ spoken vnto Peter I haue prayd that thy fayth shall neuer fayle / were not ō ly ment by the fayth ī Peter hys owne persō / but also by the fayth of ye chyrch. For to hym was yt spoken as hed of ye chyrche? yes I remember q he ryght well yt I agreede yt. But I remember also yt notwtstanding mine agremente ye were content yt we shulde enserch agayn and agayne ye matere otherwyse bysyde / wherin myne agrement shuld not binde me. Lo quod I that had I forgottē agayne But let it thā alone for ye whyle and tell me this. Dyde not Chryste entende to gader a floke & congregacyon of peole yt shulde serue god and be hys specyall people? yes quod he that ys very trouthe / For so sayethe playne scrypture of Christe in sondry placys. As where the fathere of heuen sayeth vnto Chryste in ye psalme / Postula a me & dabo tibi gen[…]es hereditatem tuam / aske of me and I shall giue the paynym people for thyne enherytaunce. & many other placys. And els vndowtedly hys hole cōmīg had bene in maner frustrate & in vayne. That people quod I whych shulde be ā ēherytaunce […]yd he entende shulde endure for hys owne dayes ōly while he lyued her[…]/or els that y[…] shulde go forth & cō tynue long after. Nay quod he that shall cōtynue whyle the worlde lasteth here tyll domys daye / & after in heuen eternally. Shall this peple q I haue amonge theym the knowlege & vnderstandynge what he wolde they shulde do to please god wythe all? ye q he. why[…]her shall they quod I haue thys knowlege for a while ī the bygynnyng & than lese yt / or shall they haue it styll as longe as they contynue? Here he bygā a litle to stagger. why quod I cā ye call th[…] hys peple any lenger yf they lese ye knowlege how to serue hym and please hym? yf they for sloth to do theyr dutye as slake seruauntys sūtyme do / yet may they mend & do beter a nother tyme. But yf they lese the knolege of theyre dutye / t[…]ā wot they nere which way to mend / As he that knoweth fornicacyon for syn / may fall by frayletye to fornycacyon. But syth he knowethe yt for nought / thoughe he sinnid more in ye doyng than yf he had not knowen the prohybycyon / yet doth ye knowlege gyue hym warnynge and occacyon of repentaunce and amendment / whych must nedys lack yf he had lost ye knowlege. Uppō this he graūted yt it must nedys be that thys peple muste nedys haue alwaye the knolege how to serue and please our lorde / or els they ceaced to be hys peple. Is not this peple q I called ye chirch? yes quod he. Thā the chyr[…]h quod I alway hath & […]lway shall by your reasō haue the knowlege & vnderstādīg / how god may be seruid and plesed. Trouth q he Is quod I that knolege fully had wtout the knolege of such thingꝭ as god bīdeth vs to bileue? Nay q he. what if we knew thē ī such wise q I as we could rehe[…]se thē ō our fīgers ēdys & yet byleuyd theym not to be trewe / wolde thys knowlege serue? In no wyse q he. for yf ye byleued the to be false / thogh ye so knew thē yt ye could reherse theym by rowe / ye coud take no warnīg by thē to plese & serue god with thē / which is the caus[…] wherfore the chyrch shulde of necessyt[…] know thē. This is q I v[…]ry well sayd. thā sith ye graūt yt ye chyrch shall euer ē dure / & yt it coud not […]dure wtout ye knolege of sich thīgꝭ as may plese god / nor thos thīgꝭ can be all known if knolege laked of those thīgꝭ yt god byndeth vs to bileue / nor ye knolege of thē eny thīg sarue to the knolege & warnīg geuē vs of goddys pleasure but yf we not only can tell theym but also byleue theym / whyche bylyefe ye graunte ys callede fayth / of thys yt cōsequently foloweth that the chyrche alwayes hathe and all ways shall haue the knowlege and bylyefe of such thyngys as god wyll haue yt boundē to byleue. That is trouth q he because god hath lefte holy scrypture to ye chyrch / and therin ys all / and ye chyrch byleuyth that to be trew. and therfore therin & therby hath the chirch all that warnyng and lernyng of goddes pleasure that ye speke of / wythout whych yt cā not endure. what if god quod I had lefte ye scripture to ye chirch lokked vp in a close cheste / and that no man shuld loke therin / wold that haue seruyd? Nay ꝑde quod he. what if he had lefte hyt open & wrytten in such wyse that no mā coud rede yt? That were all one quod he. what yf euery man quod I could rede yt and no man vnderstād yt? As lytle wold yt serue quod he as the tother. Than quod I syth yt seruyth the chyrch to lerne goddys pleasure therī / and that can yt not as ye graunte your self but yf ye chyrch vnderstande yt / yt foloweth of thys yt the chyrch vnderstandeth it. And thus euery way for the fayth and knowlege of goddys pleasure yf yt be as ye saye all knowen by the scrypture & no parte otherwyse / yet alway to this poynt ye bryng yt in the ende / yt the chyrch hath the sure knowlege thereof. And than yf yt be so / ye shall not as ye lately sayd ye shulde / in eny dyuerse textꝭ of scripture seming to make a dowtouse artycle of our fayth / and to brynge in questyone what we be bounden to byleue / after ye haue red ī scripture all that cā be red / and herd on both sydes all that can be sayd / than take whyche parte semeth to your self moste probable. Nor yf ye stand styll for all yt in a dowt / thā after your bytter prayers made to god for hys grace & gyde ī ye choyse / go take you the tone parte at aduenture and cleue therto / as though ye were sure by your confidence in god / that his grace had inclined your assēt to ye surer syde. But sith he hath shewyd yow playnely by reasone that he hathe geuyn hys chyrch in all such thyngꝭ knowlege of the trouthe / ye wyll take the sure way and put your self out of all perplexitie / yf in the poynte yt self & the scryptures that touch it / ye take for the truth that way that the chyrch tecythe you therī / how so euer the mater seme bysyde vnto your selfe or to eny man els.