The.xviii. chapiter

The author dyfferreth thanswere to the forsayde obieccyons. & fyrst by scrypture he proueth yt ye chyrche of chryste can not erre in eny necessary artycle of chrystys fayth. And in thys chapyter bee those wordys of cryst specyally touched. Suꝑ cathedram Moysi sederūt. &c. Que dicūt vobis facite. que autem faciunt nolite facere / cōcernyng the authoryte of the chyrch.

SUerly quod I for my parte I cā you very good thāk for ye haue not fayntely defendyd youre parte as though yt were a corruptyd aduocate yt wold by colusyon hādell hys clyentꝭ mater feebly for the pleasure of hys aduersary / but ye haue sayd therin / I cā tell whe[…]her as mych as any man may say / but certenly I suppose as mich as ye eyther haue hard any man say or cā your self say / And at ye lest wyse much more than I haue hard of any mā els / or coud haue sayd of my self. And vndowtyd as ye spake of shotyng in the begynnīg / thys gere how nere it goeth to the pryk we shall see after. But thys I promyse you yt wold fayn bere ouer the but & all. For if yt myght hold & be bidden by / and were as well ab[…]e to be prouyd trew as I trust to ꝓue yt fals / the but we shote at were quite gon for any suerte yt we coud rekē of our fayth & cristendome. But now to cum to the poynte / Syth yt is agreed all redy betwene vs / that at these ymagys & pylgrymagys myracles bene there / eyther shewyd by god for the comprobacyon of hys plesure theryn / or wōders wrought by the dyuyll for oure delusyon & dampnacyon / If it may eyther appere to vs yt they be not done by the dyuell / then wyll yt well folow yt they be done by god. Or yf it be prouyd to be done by god for the good of hys chirch / then wyll it be clere ynough that they be no wonders wrought by the dyuell to the dysceyt of crysten peple. And syth that eyther other of […]these partyes prouyd / implyeth the reprofe of your purpose / I wyll assay to shew / & trust ryght well to proue you the trouth of our syde by sum one of these ways or paraduēture by both / that ys to wete aswell in prouyng that god doth these myracles / as in reprouing & confutyng yt they shuld be done by the dyuell. And furst wold I fayne mete wyth your obieccyons & answer them forthwyth whyle they be fresh / sauyng that me semith better for the whyle to differ them / forasmuch as sum thyngꝭ therbe / wheruppon it wyll be requisyte yt we furst be both agreed: wythout whych we were lyke to walke wyde in wordys & ronne at all ryot so lose / that our mater could nother haue ground / order / nor ende. Now yf I wer in thys mater to dyspute wt a paynym that wolde make the questyon betw[…]ne theyr myracles & ours / albeyt I shuld haue a clere mater in thend / yet must it nedys be a longe mater & much entryked or yt shuld cū at thend. And hole bokys wold yt hold / both the confutyng of theyrs & vnto them thassertacyō of our own / specyally for that they receyue not oure scrypture / & betwene them & vs nothyng cōmune to groūd vppon but reason. And yf we shoulde dyspute wt a iew lesse labour shuld we haue / syth that we shulde haue wt hym thogh he deny the new testamente / yet reson & ye old testament agreed vppō / wherin we shuld not […]ary for the text but for ye sentence and vnderstanding. For therein we shulde haue hym styfly wythstande vs. But now syth wee shall in our mater dyspute and reason wyth those that agree theym selfe for crysten menne / oure dyspycyons ys so much the shorter in that we muste nedys aggree to gether in moo thyngy[…]. For wee muste agree in reason where fayth refusyth yt not. And ouer that wee shall agree vppon the hole corpus of scrypture / aswell the new testament as the olde. But in the interpretacyon wee maye paraduenture stykke. Is yt not so? yes quod he. well quod I / ys there any other thynge wherein ye thynke that wee shall vary / but the interpretacyō of the scrypture. Not that I remember quod he / except the scrypture yt self wheruppō we talk / as of the worshyppyng of ymagꝭ or prayeng to sayntys / in whych men thynke there can be no greate questyon yf the scrypture be well interpretyd. ye do q I agre that such thyngys as arn mē cyonyd in the gospell spokyn by Cryst vnto saynt Peter & other hys apostels & dyscyples / were not only sayd to thē self / nor onely for them selfe / but to thē for theyer successours in Crystys flok / And by them to vs all / that ys to wete euery man as shall appertayne to hys parte. whereby mene you that q he. I mene quod I as for ēsample whā he sayd / Nisi abundauerit iusticia vestra plusquam Scribarū & phariseo rum / non intrabitis i[…] regnū celo rum. Except your iustyce abound & excede ye iustyce of the Scrybys & pharesyes / ye shall neuer cū in heuyn. And where he saith If thou wylt enter into the kyngdome of heuyn kepe the cōmaundementys / dyd he not say such thyngys to theym for all crystyn men yt shuld come after? I thynke yes quod he for the seconde word concernyng the cōmaūdmentꝭ. But as for the furst / that theyr iustyce shulde be better than the iustyce of the scrybys & pharesyes / paraduenture he spake specyally to hys appostels them self / yt they shuld not be lyke ye scrybys & pharesyes / whych comaundyd other many thyngys / & dyd nothyng theym selfe. That ys in my mynde quod I well taken. and so doth holy saynt Augustyne expoune it. But syth ye think he sayd that word to hys appostels specyally rather than to all hys hole flok / whether thīk you that he sayd yt onely to them / or els to all other also yt shuld after come in theyr placis & succede thē in offyce? Nay for god q he to all ye byshoppys he sayd yt & prelatꝭ & spyrytuall rulers of hys chirch yt euer shalbe in ye chyrch / forbyddyng them to binde & lay vppon other pore mennys bakkꝭ importunable burdeyns / to the bering wherof thē self wyll not onys put forth a fynger. Uery well sayd q I. what thynke you than of that he sayd / Do ye suche thyngys as they byd you do / but do not as ye se thē do? In that wold our lord quod he yt all the people shuld do all that the prelatys shuld cōmaūd as far as was cōmaundyd in the lawe by god / but he mente no further. And therfore he sayed that they sat vppon ye chayr of Moyses. & he wyllyd that they shuld for ye cause be obeyd. And therin he ment in such thyngys onely as they shuld cōmaund / that were by god commaundyd the people in the law gyuen vnto Moyses. And that crystyn men in lykewise shall obey the byshoppys & prelatys / commaundynge onely suche thyngys as hym self hath cōmaundyd hys people in hys gospell & hys owne law. And in nothyng els q I? what meanyth yt than that our Lorde in the parable of the Samarytane / beryng ye woūdyd mā into ye inne of hys church / and delyueryng hym to the hoste after that hym self had dressyd hys woundꝭ wythe wyne and oyle / & lef[…]e wyth the hoste the.ii. grotys of the two testamē tys / promysyd the hoste besyde / ye what so euer the hoste wolde bestowe vppon him more / he wold when he cam agayn recompense hym therfore? And also in that place that we spake of our Sauyour sayd that the Scrybys and pharesyes besyde ye law of Moyses on whose sete they satt / dyd lay greate fardellys and faste bounde them on other mennys bakkis / to the beryng wherof they wold not moue a fynger thē self. And yet for all that he bad y• peple do what theyr prelatys wold byd them / though the burden were heuy / And let not to do yt though they shuld se the bydders do clene the contrary. for whych he addyd / but as they do / do not you. By oure lady q he I lyke not thys glose. For yt makyth all for the bo[…]dys / by which the laws of the church bynde vs to more a do thā ye iewes were almost wyth Moyses lawe. And I wote well Cryst sayd cum to me ye that be ouerchargyd and I shall refreshe you. And hys appostels sayd / that the bare lawe of Moyses beside the ceremonys that were set to by the scrybys & the pharesyes / were more than euer theye were able to bere and fulfyll. And therefore cryst cā to call vs into a law of liberte. And yt was in takyng away the bande of those wery ceremoniall lawes. And therfore sayth our sauyour of the law yt he callyth vs vnto / My yoke (saythe he) ys fyt and easy / & my burdeyn but lyght. wherby yt apperyth that he mēt to take away the strayte yoke & put on a more easy. And to take of the heuy burdeyne & lay on a lyghter. whyche he had not done yf he wold lade vs wyth a fardell full of mennys lawes mo thā a carte can cary away. The lawes of Cryste quod I be made by hym selfe & hys holy spyryte for the gouernaunce of hys people / and bee not in hardnes & dyffyculte of kepyng any thyng lyke to the lawes of Moyses. And thereof durst I for nede make your self iudge. For yf ye bethynk you well / I wene if ye were at thys age now to chose / yow wold rather be bounden to many of ye lawes of Crystys chyrch than to ye cyrcumcysyō alone. Nor to as much ease as we wene that Cryste callyd vs / yet be not ye laws yt haue […]ne made by his chyrch of halfe the payne nor halfe the dyffyculte that hys own be / whych him self puttyth in the gospell / though wee set asyde the councellys. It ys I trow more hard not to swere at all thā to forswere / to forbere ech angry word than not to […]ill / cōtinuall wa[…]h & prayer thē a few days appoyntid. Than what an anxyete & solicytude is there in ye forberīg of euery ydyll word? what an hard thret after the worldly cōpt for a small matter? Neuer was there almoste so sore a worde sayed vnto the Iues by Moyses / as ys to vs by Cryste in that worde alone where he sayethe that we shall of euery ydle worde gyue accōpt at the day of iugmente. what saye ye then by deuorsys restraynyd & lybertie of dyuerse wyuys wythdrawen / wher they hade lyberte to wedde for theyre pleasure yf they cast a fantesy to any yt they toke ī the warr. One of ye ware ys ynoughe quod he to make any one mā warre. Now that is merily sayd q I / but though one eye were inough for a fletcher / yet ys he for store cōtent to kepe twayn / and wold though they were sumtyme sore both and shuld put hym to sū payn / what ease also call you thys that we be bounden to abyde all sorow and shamefull deth and all marterdum vppō payne of perpetuall dāpnacyon for the professyon of our fayth. Trowe ye yt these easy wordys of hys easy yoke and lyght burden were not as well spoken to hys apposteles as to you. and yet what ease called he them to. Called he not them to watchynge / fastyng / prayeng / preching / walkyng / hunger / thurst / cold / and hete / betyng / scorgynge / prysonemente / paynefull & shamefull deth. The ease of hys yoke stādeth not ī bodely ease / nor the lyghtnes of his burden standeth nott in the slaknes of any bodely payne (excepte we be so want on that where hym selfe had not heuyn wtout payne / we loke to cum thether wt playe) but yt stādeth in the swetnes of hope / wherby we fele in our payne a plesaunt taste of h[…]uyne. Thys ys ye thyng as holy saynt Gregory Nazanzeno declareth yt refresshyth men yt arn ladid / & maketh our yoke easy & our burdeyn light. not any delyueryng frō ye lawes of ye church or frō any good tēꝑall lawes eyther / in to a lewd lyberte of slouthfull reste. For yt were not a easy yoke / but a pullyng of ye hed owt of ye yoke. Nor it were not a lyght burdeyn / but all ye burden dyschargyd cōtrary to ye wordis of saint poule and saynt Peter both / which as well vnderstode the wordys of theyr mayster as these men doo. And as a thīg cōsonant & well aggreable therwt doo cōmaūde vs obedience to our superiors & rulers one & other ī thyngis by god not forboden all though they bene harde & sore. But see for goddes sake how we be ronne a gret way further thē I thoght to go whē I begane / & haue lefte yt we shuld go forth wyth all. It ys no losse quod he for there is a good thyng well towched by ye waye. well q I let vs go bak agayne where we left. syth ye agre yt chryste spake hys wordys not to hys appostels onely for theyr owne tyme / but suche thyngys as he sayd to thē he ment to al yt shuld folow thē / And ther of sūwhat he spake to thē for ye prestys & bysshoppys onely / As when he sayd / vos estꝭ sal terre / ye be ye salt of ye erth / & sūwhat to ye hole flokke as when he sayd / Mandatū nouū do vobis vt diligatis inuicem sicut ego dilexi vos. I geue you a new cōmaundment yt you loue to gethere as I haue louyd you / Tell me thē I requyre you / whā chryst sayd to saynt Peter / sathanas hath desyred to sy[…]e yt as men syfte corne / but I haue prayd for y• yt thy faith shall not fayle / sayde he thys to h[…] as a promyse of ye fayth to be by goddes helpe ꝑpetually kepte & preseruyd in saynte peter only / or elles in ye hole churche / that ys to wete ye hole cōgregacyō of chrysten people professyng his name & his fayth & abydyng in ye body of the same / not being precided & cut of / meanyng yt his fayth shuld neuer so vtterly fayle […] his church / but yt yt shulde hole & entyere abide & remayn therī? Mary q he this ys good to be aduysed of. For though chryste for yt more parte suche thyngys as he spake to ōe spake to all / accordīg to hys owne wordes / q vm dico ōnibꝰ dico / yt I say to one I say to all / yet sū thyngis he sayd & ment perticulerly as he spake it. As when he bad saint peter cū vpō ye water to hym / he bad not the remenaunte com so. And so may yt ꝑaduenture be yt thys word was spoken and ment toward Peter alone. That wylbe q I very harde to hold. For his faythe after fayled. But syth that vppon hys fyrst confessyon of the ryghte fayth that chryste was goddes sō / our lorde made hym hys vniuersall vicare / and vndere hym hed of hys churche / And yt for hys successour he shuld be ye fyrst vppō whō & whose ferme cōfessed fayth he wolde bylde hys churche / & of any yt was ōly mā make hym ye fyrste & chefe hed and ruler therof / therfore he shewyd hym that hys faythe / that is to wete the fayth by hym confessed / shuld neuer fayle in hys churche nor / neuer dyd yt / not wythstādyng hys denyēg. For yet stode styll the lyghte of faythe in our lady / of whom wee rede in the gospell contynewall assystence to her swetest son wythout fleyng or flyttīg And in all other we fynde eyther […]rīg from hym one tyme or other / or ellys doute of his resurreccyō after hys deth (hys dere mother only excepte) For ye sygnyfycacyon and rememberaunce wherof the church yerely in the […]enebre lessons leueth her cādyll burnyng styll when all the remnaunt that signyfyeth hys appostels and dyscyples be one by one put out. And syth his fayth ī e[…]tect fayled / and yet the faythe yt he ꝓfessyd abode styll in our lady / ye promyse that god made was (as it semith) ment not to hym / but as hed of the churche. And therfore our lorde added therto / And thou beyng one of these dayes conuertyd / conferme & strength thy brethern. In whych by these wordꝭ our sauyour mēt & ꝓmysed that ye fayth shuld stand foreuer. So yt the gates of hell shulde not preuayle there agaynste. Or elles myght ye say yt these wordys spoken to saynt peter / fede my shepe / was mēt but for hym selfe / & no cōmaundmente to any successour of his or any bysshop or prelate. Andby that mean myght ye say also that these wordes of Chrystys promyse made vnto his dyssyples that the holy goste shuld enstructe them of all thyngys / were only mente for them selfe in theyre owne parsons. And not that euer he shulde ēstructe his church af[…]ere theyre dayes. And whenne he sayd wherso euer be.ii.or.iii.gathered to gether in my name there ā I my self among them / we shall say by thys meanes that he ment but of hys own dyscyples in his owne tyme whyle he was here wyth them / and not that he wold be lyke wyse present wyth suche othere congregacyons ī his chyrch after. And fynally thē were these wordys frustrat where he sayd. Lo I am wyth you all ye dayes to ye worldes ende. yf he shude mene yt but wyth them that hard hym speke yt / then shuld yt appere yt he had intendyd a chyrche onely of them and for theyr tyme / And them from theyr dethe hether all were don. Uerely syr quod he I can well agre that all suche thyngys was spoken by christ to make them sure that the faythe shulde neuer fayle ī his churche / How be it if I durst doute in that poynt one thyng is there that sumwhat styckethe in my mynd. Doute on quod I betwene vs twayn & spare not nor let not to tell me what moueth you. Syr q he I thynk yt god setteth no more by fayth thē he doth by charyte. but as for charyte & good wor […]ꝭ with vertuous lyuyng shall coole & decaye in the churche as our sauyoure sayth ī the.xxiiii.chapyter of mathew. Because iniquite shall aboūd / yt charyte of many men shall coole. And surely me thynkythe it is well nere all gon all redy. God forbede quod I. For all be yt yt yt gretly day by day decayeth and moche people nought / yet be ther many good men abowte / & shalbe allwey thoughe they be few in cōparyson of the multytude. And yet is yt not all one of other vertuous and of faythe / yt ys to wete of knowlege and byleue of tharticles of our fayth. I mene of such artycles as we be of necessyte bounden to beleue. For albe yt that the flokke of chryste shall neuer lake good & deuout vertuouse people / yet shall both ye best be synners / and also moch more ye multytude shall euer haue the faythe that I speke of / thā shall haue the goodnes of liuing. why so q he. For.ii.causes q I. one y• malyce of ye peple wherby they wyll not be so redye to lyue well as to beleue well. for ye peple thē self wyll better kepe ye fayth thē ot[…]er vertues / syth it is a thīg of l[…]s labour to know what they shuld byleue / and to beleue yt all so when they knowe yt / then yt ys to worke well. For though the knowlege and byleue bryng many men to the laboure of good workys / yet the worlde cōmenly and the fraylete of our flesshe wyth thētycement of our gostly ēmys make vs wyllīgly and wyttyngly well knowyng and beleuyng the good / yet to walke in the worse. as doth sūtyme the syk man that byleuynge hys phisycyon / and hauyng had also ryght often good profe by his owne experyence to hys payne before / that sū certeyn mete or drynke shall doo hym harme / doth yet of an inportune apetyte fall for his lytell pleasure to hys great payne and hurte. A nother cause ys q I ye goodnes of god / whyche how far so euer his people fall from the vse of vertu / shall not yet as hym selfe hath promysed suffer them to fall from the knowlege of vertu / not oonly for the manyfestacyō of hys iustyse yt theyre owne cōscyence may condempne them ī doyng ye thīgꝭ that them selfe know to be nought / but also to thentent they may styll haue amonge them a perpetuall occasyon of amēdment. For yf the fayth were onis gone and the churche of cryste fallen in that errour that they beleuyd vyce to be vertu / and Idolatrye to be ye ryght way of goddys worshyp / thē had they no rule to gyde thē to better. And therfore whyle we be not ī errour of vnderstandyng & faythe / how so euer we fall or how often so euer we synne / we see the waye to turne agayne by grace to goddꝭ mercy. But if fayth were gone all were gone / and then had god here no church at all.